Mixing "ethical" question about midi drums

[Heabow]

Hi everyone

I know many mixers here - amateurs as well as pros - receive sometimes midi drums to mix. I myself used to program drums for my own projects and I've always took care of doing something really realistic, on both artistic (creative and interesting parts) and technical (velocities, realistic timing placements) sides. So I'm always surprised that many bands don't care about that and when I receive midi drum tracks, 90% are very robotic and not realistic even when the project (clients and music) need something very natural.

So I wonder if, in your opinion, it's up to me to fix the tracks as the mixer in order to get a better product at the end or if I have to work with them as they are and not care about the result. After all, if the client provides bad programmings, then I assume they want bad results? I'm not talking about being extra paid to fix the things of course. What are your usual ways of dealing with this?

 

[~BURNY~]

I try to get the best result to my ears no matter what needs to be done. If something "sounds" wrong the engineer will always take the blame anyway and that includes poor playing. That's unfair but that's the reality of this job.

 

[Mago]

If I'm not paid for midi editing, but everything is 127 & 100% on grid, then I'll just slap some randomization over the midi, and maybe adjust parts as I go when I hear something is really off.

Always better to communicate about that beforehand tho!

 

[Christian WUFU]

I'd say at least fix up the fills, and any snare rolls if you're not willing to tell them to humanize the drums themselves. Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with asking for some more pay to fix their laziness. Editing/humanizing is not the same as mixing, and you should be compensated for the extra time and effort you'd be putting in. Especially when you conider that this isn't something super easy like nudging the bass track or vocals slightly here and there.

 

[Heabow]

Yeah, I always tell the band before anything. I fix the major stuff such as snare rolls, some velocities and sometimes delete extra notes (i.e 6 hits for 2 arms!) but no more than that , especially if the parts are full of all mistakes and if the band does not see the importance of doing this. But the final product inevitably suffers from bad progs and that makes a bit sick tbh.

 

[Machinated]

So I wonder if, in your opinion, it's up to me to fix the tracks as the mixer in order to get a better product at the end or if I have to work with them as they are and not care about the result. After all, if the client provides bad programmings, then I assume they want bad results? I'm not talking about being extra paid to fix the things of course. What are your usual ways of dealing with this?

forgive the possible strong opinions here.

I feel as a MIXER, editing, writing or fixing MIDI is all well outside what you're being paid to do. the drum parts, sounds etc should all be decided way before you hit play for the first time when you get to mixing. its honestly crazy that its not considered strange for mixers to pick the core drum sound, guitar tones, etc.

the lines have definitely got blurred between roles but when crucial decisions like drum parts and instrument tones delayed right up until mixing its just asking for problems.

of course many people are used to working like that, but IMO the midi parts should be decided and finalised pretty early on, as should an idea of which drum sounds. when it comes to being mixed the drums should be fully decided.

I know a lot of people won't want to jeopardise losing a mixing job to someone else who's willing to edit things up, pick sounds and make the bands decisions but ultimately they are decisions that should be made well before a mixer even gets involved.

I think its possible to discuss with bands what needs doing before mixing can take place - tell them that in order to mix it properly you'd like to work on the MIDI parts and decide which samples to use and that its impossible for you to mix until thats dealt with. It's really not wise to try and mix before that's dealt with (even though some people do it).

 

[brianhood]

If the band is sending me midi drums, I actually tell them to just send it all as 127. I'd rather do it myself, as I know I can make it more natural sounding than they can, and probably in half the time because I know what's worth doing and what isn't (80/20 rule applies here). It usually doesn't take me more than 15-20 minutes to adjust all of the velocities for a song.

 

[Heabow]

@Brian: I get your PoV as the mixing process is way easier and smoother and the final result is better. But if there are many mistakes in the parts, you have to fix them before touching velocities. And it's extra work.

@Machinated: I totally share your thoughts. For me mixing is not editing. But as you said, it's pretty common for many mixers to work on these kind of stuff. As for the sound decisions (guitar tones, drum samples, etc.) I'm more moderate. Sure, the band has to think about what they want and must provide a clear image of they're after (particularly because most indie bands produce their own stuff) but I think it's also the mixer job to shape "his sound" according to the material he gets. And I usually prefer to have the choice regarding the tones. Back to the drum progs, I must admit that I would have prefered to write the drum parts of most of the projects I worked on for a little extra fee if the bands would have been ok for that. Faster and better to do it myself from zero instead of dealing with poor ideas and poor programming...

 

[JeffTD]

If the band is sending me midi drums, I actually tell them to just send it all as 127. I'd rather do it myself, as I know I can make it more natural sounding than they can, and probably in half the time because I know what's worth doing and what isn't (80/20 rule applies here). It usually doesn't take me more than 15-20 minutes to adjust all of the velocities for a song.

This, 100%.

 

[Machinated]

@Machinated: I totally share your thoughts. For me mixing is not editing. But as you said, it's pretty common for many mixers to work on these kind of stuff. As for the sound decisions (guitar tones, drum samples, etc.) I'm more moderate. Sure, the band has to think about what they want and must provide a clear image of they're after (particularly because most indie bands produce their own stuff) but I think it's also the mixer job to shape "his sound" according to the material he gets. And I usually prefer to have the choice regarding the tones. Back to the drum progs, I must admit that I would have prefered to write the drum parts of most of the projects I worked on for a little extra fee if the bands would have been ok for that. Faster and better to do it myself from zero instead of dealing with poor ideas and poor programming...

a few years ago I had exactly your views on it. most of us here aren't just mixers, we have various skills. MIDI editing, choosing drums, choosing guitar tones etc aren't the job of a mixer.

we might be capable of doing it better than them, but it's not part of mixing.

by all means help them out with it, but do it early and commit to the sounds and move on to the next thing.

the problem I have with choosing sounds for bands isn't because I don't have my own opinions on what I'd prefer or can't do it. again, we might be capable of doing it, we may well end up mixing it too, but these creative decisions are a separate process.

if you leave all these decisions to the end, it's too overwhelming and there's too much to think about. if you really focus on each element individually first and get it right, you won't have to worry about it by the time you get to mix. the more simple you make your mix, the more control you'll have over it and consequentlyyou can do more complicated and interesting things.

 

[Jordon]

If the band is sending me midi drums, I actually tell them to just send it all as 127. I'd rather do it myself, as I know I can make it more natural sounding than they can, and probably in half the time because I know what's worth doing and what isn't (80/20 rule applies here). It usually doesn't take me more than 15-20 minutes to adjust all of the velocities for a song.

Yep, pretty much. I'd make sure they send a stereo bounce of what they had programmed with their velocities just in case there were parts that needed to be referenced, but that usually goes without saying.

 

[Heabow]

Very interesting. You guys are all more experienced than me and it's interesting to see how you deal in these kind of situations and realize that you actually prefer to work just a bit more than you're supposed to in order to have something more solid at the end. I was inclined to do that way but I thought that I should not go beyond the duties I am paid for (even if I've always done more actually) I take note Thanks a lot!

 

[Jordon]

Very interesting. You guys are all more experienced than me and it's interesting to see how you deal in these kind of situations and realize that you actually prefer to work just a bit more than you're supposed to in order to have something more solid at the end. I was inclined to do that way but I thought that I should not go beyond the duties I am paid for (even if I've always done more actually) I take note Thanks a lot!

Well, let's make it clear that there's a difference between putting in a little more time and working for free. Hopefully, the client has agreed upon any extra time and costs associated with the extra work being done. Or it's factored into the price being charged.

Work for free? Nope

Do a little bit more (even if it's for a slightly smaller amount)? Sure, maybe.

 

[JeffTD]

Yeah, put it this way - if I know I'm getting midi drums, the time I anticipate will be spent humanizing is included in my quote/rate. I also am fine working for a slightly lower hourly rate as a result of doing the MIDI type stuff for "free" if it means my name is on a product that's better than it otherwise would have been without the "free" stuff. Drum humanization is one of those things you just cannot leave out if you want decent results.

 

[Heabow]

Yep, I meant "work a bit more" not for free but with the agreement of the band before anything