Nevermore release date...

[General Zod]

Interesting. But then you get people like Jim Shepard going on record and stating that EoR is their best record and it's the future of Nevermore blah blah.

I like Jim. He's a very cool guy, and a very good bass player. However, can he really speak to what the future of the band's sound is? I would tend to think that Warrell and Jeff, and even now Steve, would have a greater impact on Nevermore's future sound than Jim. Beyond that, I'm not sure how anyone can speculate as to what will musically influence them down the road, let alone someone else. To me, it reads like typical pre-release hype.

Did you ever read the interview he gave us? He was clear in speaking for the band that the last half of EoR is going to be representative of future Nevermore.

Please! When the best eZine on the planet interviews the best band on the planet, what sort of moron wouldn't read it?

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]MG: I want to go on record here and say that Enemies of Reality could be the bands finest moment.[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/font]

Further proof that Guggs doesn't know shit about music.

Zod

 

[Dev]

We Disintegrate has always been a favorite of mine, if only for the vocals on that track.

Best Nevermore song for me .

 

[JayKeeley]

I like Jim. He's a very cool guy, and a very good bass player. However, can he really speak to what the future of the band's sound is?

No - like you say, he plays bass.

*rimshot*

Somewhere One Inch Nad is sharpening his knives, and someone else is going to throw the "Steve Harris" example at me. (Probably Erik).

 

[NAD]

Yeah, I'm glad I wandered into this thread you mong. :Smug:

PS: I don't like Nevermore, but I only listened to them once. Smell you later. :Spin:

 

[Carbonized]

I like Nevermore a lot. When i first heard the years and years ago (also when i first heard Sanctuary - Refuge Denied when it came out) i didn't like them. That was mainly due to Warrels's voice at the time. But after i heard one song "Matricide" and then a few years later "Dreaming Neon Black" i liked those then decided to look into more stuff. After that i came to appreciate Nevermore as a whole. I find some of the song/album titles to be a bit contrived but i don't mind too much.
EoR, yea the production just killed that album and i have yet to hear the remastered version although i have heard some samples and it's sounds infinitely better. As much as i like Nevermore i don't hold any expectations for when they release new material. It generally takes more than a few listens to get into one of their albums anyway (for me).
I'm sure the new one will be just as good as any of the prior releases.

 

[JayKeeley]

I like Nevermore a lot. When i first heard the years and years ago (also when i first heard Sanctuary - Refuge Denied when it came out) i didn't like them. That was mainly due to Warrels's voice at the time.

That's always been the most difficult part for me -- the vocals. I have the same problem with Evergrey and Iced Earth, and Into Eternity's "Dead or Dreaming". Jag Panzer do it on every single album too. Can you guess what I'm talking about?

Each line of each song is sung in the exact same manner. Sometimes the chorus is sung the same way as the verse. Tom Englund is the biggest culprit (next to Harry Conlin). It's like, change the fucking scale already.

I like all the bands, but I've always felt there was just 'something' missing from the vocal melody department -- although Into Eternity fixed this for Buried in Oblivion. Interestingly enough, I think Sanctuary is better than any Nevermore I've heard, just because the vocals are so much more melodic. I also thought Warrel Dane did a better job on EoR, no kidding.

 

[Carbonized]

That's always been the most difficult part for me -- the vocals. I have the same problem with Evergrey and Iced Earth, and Into Eternity's "Dead or Dreaming". Jag Panzer do it on every single album too. Can you guess what I'm talking about?

Each line of each song is sung in the exact same manner. Sometimes the chorus is sung the same way as the verse. Tom Englund is the biggest culprit (next to Harry Conlin). It's like, change the fucking scale already.

I like all the bands, but I've always felt there was just 'something' missing from the vocal melody department -- although Into Eternity fixed this for Buried in Oblivion. Interestingly enough, I think Sanctuary is better than any Nevermore I've heard, just because the vocals are so much more melodic. I also thought Warrel Dane did a better job on EoR, no kidding.

Yea most bands i don't like is usually because of vocals. All of the above you listed definitely. I don't think any of those bands have "that one song" that could ease me into liking them. I've head enough and there's no getting around it. Maybe Nevermore has one song that could really bring you to really enjoying them like it did for me *shrug*
I'm still not too fond of Refuge Denied but i like Into the Mirror Black a lot. I wanted to listen to it the other day but somehow the silver bit on the top on the CD has "eroded" in places so it's fucked. Now i can't listen to it anymore I need someone to upload a copy for me or something.

 

[General Zod]

That's always been the most difficult part for me -- the vocals. I have the same problem with Evergrey and Iced Earth, and Into Eternity's "Dead or Dreaming". Jag Panzer do it on every single album too. Can you guess what I'm talking about?

One of the biggest reasons I like Nevermore and Evergrey is because of the vocals.

And don't pick on Tom, the guy was never supposed to be the singer.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

One of the biggest reasons I like Nevermore and Evergrey is because of the vocals.

It is odd how I have this slight issue with all your fave bands! It's difficult to describe because there is no doubt Dane, Barlow, Englund, and Conklin are GREAT vocalists. I just think they could improve on their vocal lines by singing beyond one range or scale.

I'll also guarantee you something else -- I bet all those bands write vocal lines based around the riffs, as opposed to writing riffs to support the vocals. This is backed by the fact that the songs (I bet) are primarily written by the guitarist (Loomis, Schaffer, Englund, and Brody) BEFORE being handed off to the vocalist. If I remember right, Schaffer would even pen Barlow's vocal melodies.

And don't pick on Tom, the guy was never supposed to be the singer.
Zod

Heh, he's actually a very underrated guitarist.

 

[General Zod]

It is odd how I have this slight issue with all your fave bands!

That's OK. I'm not a huge fan of Slough Feg or Agalloch, so I guess we're even. When we hang we'll have to listen to nothing but "The Gathering Wilderness" and "Temple of Shadows".

It's difficult to describe because there is no doubt Dane, Barlow, Englund, and Conklin are GREAT vocalists. I just think they could improve on their vocal lines by singing beyond one range or scale.

I believe you have a better ear for that sort of thing than I do. Truthfully, I never really take note of it. Plus with Barlow, and especially Dane, there's so much variety in their style from song to song, that I could care less.

Since this is something you pick up on mor than me, are the bands you tend to prefer much better at mixing up the vocals? It seems to me, that bands like Slough Feg and Agalloch are quite limited vocally.

I'll also guarantee you something else -- I bet all those bands write vocal lines based around the riffs, as opposed to writing riffs to support the vocals. This is backed by the fact that the songs (I bet) are primarily written by the guitarist...

I just assumed 99% of bands write that way.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

Since this is something you pick up on mor than me, are the bands you tend to prefer much better at mixing up the vocals? It seems to me, that bands like Slough Feg and Agalloch are quite limited vocally.

Well, I wouldn't classify Agalloch in the same manner because the music is different, it's sombre, it's not meant to be melodic and "singalong" metal. I'm talking about melodic metal bands, which yes, Slough Feg definitely fit into.

Yeah, I definitely believe Mike Scalzi sings vocal melody lines that are significantly different from one song to the next. When I think of Slough Feg songs, I think of the vocal lines. It's therefore easy to spot the songs apart. I can't do that with Nevermore as easily just because Dane doesn't fluctuate his scale pattern as much. It's a different approach, almost as if he's 'shouting' his vocals. You know who else did this back in the day? Chuck Billy from Testament.

I brought this up with Into Eternity in my interview with them, and they definitely acknowledged that on "Dead or Dreaming". WHat do you think of the clean vocal lines on that album (not the type or strength of vocals, but the actual scale patterns?), compared to "Buried in Oblivion". Do you notice the significant improvement?

It's definitely down to the vocalists I think -- Mercenary is a good example to use here because they sound a little like Nevermore, but their vocals carry hooks. Look at "Seize the Night". That melody gets caught in your head.

I just assumed 99% of bands write that way.
Zod

No way. This applies mostly to bands where the guitarist is the songwriter, i.e, Nevermore, Iced Earth, Jag Panzer. I'm almost sure the entire album is written, and then a tape gets handed off to the vocalist at the tail end. I would be shocked if there's much collaboration between vocalist and guitarist during the song writing process.

It's also a very American thing. Other than these cult CA bands like Slough Feg and Hammers, the US heavy metal scene seems to shy away from 'catchy' vocal melodies, why I do not know. In comparison, look at bands like Angra or Ark - see the difference? The vocal lines from Edu Fulaschi and Jorn Lande are one of the winning attributes.

 

[JayKeeley]

Actually, Hammers is a bad example. They are not as 'catchy' and 'singalong' as Slough Feg, even though they share the same vocalist.

 

[General Zod]

Yeah, I definitely believe Mike Scalzi sings vocal melody lines that are significantly different from one song to the next. When I think of Slough Feg songs, I think of the vocal lines. It's therefore easy to spot the songs apart. I can't do that with Nevermore as easily just because Dane doesn't fluctuate his scale pattern as much.

Perhaps it also has something to do with the frequency with which you listen to Nevermore and Slough Feg. When I think of Nevermore, I think of Dane before Loomis.

It's a different approach, almost as if he's 'shouting' his vocals. You know who else did this back in the day? Chuck Billy from Testament.

Have you ever heard the title track from "Dreaming"? Or "Forever", from the same disc? I think Dane is one hell of a vocalist, who uses more of his voice than 99% of the vocalists in Metal.

I brought this up with Into Eternity in my interview with them, and they definitely acknowledged that on "Dead or Dreaming". WHat do you think of the clean vocal lines on that album (not the type or strength of vocals, but the actual scale patterns?), compared to "Buried in Oblivion". Do you notice the significant improvement?

Yes. But I couldn't tell you if the improvement is due to the vocalist fluctuating his scales more. I just think "Buried" is a more mature disc, in every way.

It's definitely down to the vocalists I think -- Mercenary is a good example to use here because they sound a little like Nevermore, but their vocals carry hooks. Look at "Seize the Night". That melody gets caught in your head.

I don't find Mercenary's songs 1/10th as memorable as Nevermore's. Quite frankly, I find 90% of what Mercenary does quite boring and less than memorable.

No way. This applies mostly to bands where the guitarist is the songwriter, i.e, Nevermore, Iced Earth, Jag Panzer. I'm almost sure the entire album is written, and then a tape gets handed off to the vocalist at the tail end. I would be shocked if there's much collaboration between vocalist and guitarist during the song writing process.

Than I suppose it's my own perception. When I was in a band, we mostly wrote the guitar lines first. Whenever we wrote a vocal line first, the song never seemed to have as much flow. Additionally, whenever I've read interviews with artists, I almost always read how the music precedes the vocals.

It's also a very American thing. Other than these cult CA bands like Slough Feg and Hammers, the US heavy metal scene seems to shy away from 'catchy' vocal melodies, why I do not know. In comparison, look at bands like Angra or Ark - see the difference? The vocal lines from Edu Fulaschi and Jorn Lande are one of the winning attributes.

I can't say I see the difference between Angra and Ark and many of the American bands that I listen to. If I had to name to my five favortite American Metal bands, the list would look something like this:

Nevermore
Iced Earth
Symphony X
Zero Hour
Aska

If I had to name my ten favorite vocalists, Warrell Dane, Matthew Barlow, Russell Allen, Erik Rosvald and George Call (of Aska) would be on that list. A large part of the reason I listen to these bands is because of their vocalists and their vocal lines.

Zod

 

[Demonspell]

I'll have to disagree with Agalloch being limited vocally, while they're obviously not the most gifted singing you'll hear they do add to the atmosphere a lot (especially on The Mantle), and for me that's just as important as the vocal melodies. Nevermore does fall in that category for me even he rarely attempts to build a song around his vocals, I think Dane's very good at adapting his voice to convey his lyrics.

 

[General Zod]

Nevermore does fall in that category for me even he rarely attempts to build a song around his vocals, I think Dane's very good at adapting his voice to convey his lyrics.

Probably my favorite Nevermore song is the title track to DNB. The title track is completely built around his voice, and it sends shivers down my spine.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

I can't say I see the difference between Angra and Ark and many of the American bands that I listen to.

Really!!!? You don't hear the difference in all those vocal harmonies & melodies, etc? To me it's like night and day.

Don't get me wrong though - Barlow & co are phenomenal vocalists, I just don't think they sing very 'melodiously'. It's not necessarily a bad thing, they just have a reasonably aggressive style, which probably fits the music more.

I think I even heard someone call "Nevermore a death metal band with clean vocals" once. Sanctuary are not as aggresive and the vocals suddenly soar. Iced Earth are very thrashy, although most people complain that every IE album sounds exactly the same. Into Eternity have mastered their craft now -- they mix it all up, whether harsh or clean. Evergrey have lost the edge and become repetitive. (I'll take Wolverine over Evergrey when it comes to dark prog vocals).

 

[General Zod]

Really!!!? You don't hear the difference in all those vocal harmonies & melodies, etc? To me it's like night and day.

I'd say it's more like the difference between day and dusk.

I think there's a difference in the sense that the vocals are more melodic, which is part of why European Power Metal has a reputation for having a "happier" sound. However, I can't say that I've ever noticed the frequency with which bands fluctuate the scales that songs are sung in.

I think I even heard someone call "Nevermore a death metal band with clean vocals" once.

I'd agree with that description.

(I'll take Wolverine over Evergrey when it comes to dark prog vocals).

Their all yours. While both bands are equally talented, I can't really bang my head to songs about being molested by your dad, or a woman's slow decent into depression. I'll take S.D.T., ISoT and RD over anything Wolverine has ever done.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

I was thinking about this topic this morning.

It's a little like describing the difference between major scales and minor scales. You take A major, and it sounds 'bright'. Compare it to A minor, and it sounds 'sombre'. Both rooted in A, however.

If I were to list the following vocalists: Kiske, Dane, Dickinson, Tate, Barlow, Conklin, Lande, Englund, would you agree to this division:

Group 1: Kiske, Dickinson, Tate, Lande
Group 2: Dane, Barlow, Conklin, Englund

Notice how group 1 vocals would lean towards the 'major' scale, and group 2 towards the 'minor'.

Both exceptional groups, and all singers have the ability to switch from 1 to 2, however, you can definitely see where each are 'rooted'.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[JayKeeley]

Their all yours. While both bands are equally talented, I can't really bang my head to songs about being molested by your dad, or a woman's slow decent into depression. I'll take S.D.T., ISoT and RD over anything Wolverine has ever done.

You fail it, bitch. So you'll take 'alien abduction with non-lubricated anal probing' and 'child molestation by a gay priest' instead. You dirty astral h0m0.

Forget the headbanging shit, I'm just saying that Stefan Zell is more talented that Englund. Listen to "Sarah" and "Carousel" and prove me wrong. I'll take emotion over everything else.

 

[General Zod]

It's a little like describing the difference between major scales and minor scales. You take A major, and it sounds 'bright'. Compare it to A minor, and it sounds 'sombre'. Both rooted in A, however.

Yes. That I fully grasp.

If I were to list the following vocalists: Kiske, Dane, Dickinson, Tate, Barlow, Conklin, Lande, Englund, would you agree to this division:

Group 1: Kiske, Dickinson, Tate, Lande
Group 2: Dane, Barlow, Conklin, Englund

Notice how group 1 vocals would lean towards the 'major' scale, and group 2 towards the 'minor'.

Both exceptional groups, and all singers have the ability to switch from 1 to 2, however, you can definitely see where each are 'rooted'.

I see how Kiske and Lande would be firmly rooted in Group 1. However, I would have thought that Dickinson and Tate belonged in Group 2 as well (by the way, Tate belongs in his own group).

Hope that makes sense.

Mostly.

Zod