New member, and a few concepts to clarify?

[rispsira]

Hi everyone,

Dont wanna bore you, but a quick introduction,

My name is Sary, im a guitarist living in Lebanon, play in a prog metal band. We only have a "band space" which is our rehearsal room that we have worked on (proofing and treatment) to work on our music and record (in the same place because of budget restrictions). Now that iam thinking about it even if i wanted to bore you that's about it haha.

I have a bit of trouble understanding something that maybe you could shed some light on:

How long of a delay in signal are we talking about before we have phase cancellation issues? Although i realise that the signal can never be completely aligned because of different wave lengths, i often read about stereo splitting with say a 5-7ms delay for live performances.
This is important to me as i am the only guitarist in the band and it will get me closer to double tracking or well the punch you get from two guitarists playing the same riff, (though the imperfect tuning of the guitar has to do with the thickness as well) at least theoretically since i havent tried it yet. I bought a tc 1210 i might use to try that out. (cannot yet as i am still waiting for some gear to complete my rig)

Why dont you get phase issues when you do that? is it because the delay in time is not enough to create a problem? That is why i am asking how long the signal has to travel compared to a "source" before you get that hollow sound if i can describe it that way. I may not be asking the right questions to understand that stuff; if this is the case please clarify that for me.

I have other questions but ill leave you alone for now haha.

Anyways, thanks to all of you for this wondeful forum. A real gold mine.

Later!
Sary

 

[Deaf Ear]

Unless you're tracking everything live, then double tracking yourself is going to sound better than using the delay trick to widen the stereo spread on guitar tracks. Just do everything twice. Was this your question?

 

[aortizjr]

The delay stereo widening trick really only sorta works on recordings and if you have the guitars panned hard right and left. I only use this option if there is no way to get at least a second track of guitars. Maybe for just beefing up rehearsal recordings or something.

But even if you get it sounding ok in stereo, collapse it into mono and guitars are gone. It also sounds obviously effected to me as well.

For live use, it might be ok if you have rigs on both sides of a stage facing out and directional. Especially if you were use 2 heads to dial in different tones. But in a rehearsal space where everything slams the center, it will be the same effect as going mono, and you will have all sorts of troubles. Well it will sound like a chorus pedal or something.

As the only guitar player in my band, I work my riffs to bring out more beef. Adding low 4ths or whole chord palm mutes and such. Then for leads I try to have them work rhythmically and melodically with the song so you don't miss the rhythm guitar as much. Oh and it definitely helps to have a an awesome bass player and drummer that know how to fill out the space.

It is actually nice because they are heard much more clearly and their talents show instead of just following guitars all the time.

But two guitar tracks is the best way. For recording, just lay down the second track, doesn't take too long.

 

[rispsira]

im sorry guys u misunderstood me but its my fault i guess i mixed everything toigether, i will not explain it now though as its 6 15 am my time and im still up and will write a really stupid post! ill be back take my time try to explain better! but thanks for chiming in! i really appreciate it..

be back tom, until then goodnight guys

 

[hoehlentroll]

I think he means in a live situation??

 

[dcb]

i did the same when our guitarplayer left the band. i had 2 amps on stage, 1 left, 1 right. i had a boss gt8 and used a delay with 20 ms on one side.
you wanna have at least 10-12 ms to really hear the effect of stereo widening. our brain will interpret needs 10 ms or more, to tell that there is 2 signals instead of 1.

so to answer your question - you need at least 10 ms, better 20 ms. above that, you will hear a delay that causes rhythmical blurryness, which is also not the way to go.
meshuggah do that live - hagstrom switches on a delay with 15ms (i guess) when fred plays lead. works ok.

 

[ahjteam]

I have done this live many times, miced two totally different amps (Peavey XXX and Vox AC30) when the signal is coming from the same guitar without any phase problems, just check the phase with phase flip button and use the one that sounds better. Just don't make them mono, pan them wide.

 

[rispsira]

Hi guys,

Thanks for your posts! true i was talking about live performances. The first time i heard about this trick is when someone was talking to me about John petrucci of Dream Theater using it live with 7 ms split. But i have never tried it so far because i still have a lot of other tests to decide how to configure my rig entirely and i know i wont get it right the first time and will change it along the way.

I am using the exact two mono amps in stereo and switch between the preamps, so i only have one preamp section working at a given time and both power amp sections working at any given time. I was thinking of trying it out and delaying one of the preamp signal going through one of the poweramps.

What i cannot understand is how it matters so much in recording when you are using more than a mic not to have unwanted phasey sounds, and how a lot of guys make it work in live performances to delay the signal on one side of the stereo field. Therefore the question how long are we talking about for a signal to reach in contrast with the soruce before you get those issues.

But now im thinking its not the right question to ask to understand that. And from what i gather from you guys (and it may be the wrong conclusions) is that the phase issues happen when the setup is mono, but when they are completely seperate (stereo) the ears dont pick up the phasey sounds.

I guess because no one ear is listening to more than one (strong?) signal (one signal for each ear) so it doesnt hear the phase cancellation since the other signal is going through the other ear?

Or m i a complete retard?

 

[rispsira]

The delay stereo widening trick really only sorta works on recordings and if you have the guitars panned hard right and left. I only use this option if there is no way to get at least a second track of guitars. Maybe for just beefing up rehearsal recordings or something.

But even if you get it sounding ok in stereo, collapse it into mono and guitars are gone. It also sounds obviously effected to me as well.

For live use, it might be ok if you have rigs on both sides of a stage facing out and directional. Especially if you were use 2 heads to dial in different tones. But in a rehearsal space where everything slams the center, it will be the same effect as going mono, and you will have all sorts of troubles. Well it will sound like a chorus pedal or something.

As the only guitar player in my band, I work my riffs to bring out more beef. Adding low 4ths or whole chord palm mutes and such. Then for leads I try to have them work rhythmically and melodically with the song so you don't miss the rhythm guitar as much. Oh and it definitely helps to have a an awesome bass player and drummer that know how to fill out the space.

It is actually nice because they are heard much more clearly and their talents show instead of just following guitars all the time.

But two guitar tracks is the best way. For recording, just lay down the second track, doesn't take too long.

Man that is some great advice to anyone playing as the single guitarist in the band, and a very interesting point about doing that in the rehearsal space, and i have to say it sucks haha. I wouldnt like trying sh*t in a live situation for the first time!

Thanks!