New Underworld Track: Without You

[EyeballKid]

One final suggestion before I go is that in the traditional prog metal vein, if you like DT, Fates Warning's A Pleasant Shade of Gray makes them look like total amateurs.

APSOG rules, but I wouldn't say it makes them look like total amateurs. It certainly accesses an emotional musicality that Dream Theater has never been capable of as a unit, though.

 

[anonym115]

@Eyeballkid...Not sure why you are laughing. The two bands didn't have the same singers when the ballads mentioned were recorded...

@Postulate...Does it matter that the list spans multiple genres? I was simply listing bands I had been suggested before, most of them even appear on this very forum.

Also, jazz influence is not automatically NOT random time signatures by any means. The best jazz blends the timings so that they sound very natural and have a flow. This is certainly subjective, I am aware, but many of these neo prog bands just don't have the time flow IMO. It sounds as if they discovered time signatures, and then rushed into the writing room to prove it. I can't quite describe it...


Also, why do progressive metal bands have to progress toward complexity after each album? To me, being a progressive band simply means you are ahead of the mainstream significantly, and you experiment sonically. It doesn't literally mean your band has to progress. It means your music, as a whole, is progressive relative to the culture.

Anyways, thanks alot for the suggestions. I will promptly check them out.

 

[anonym115]

Well, Threshold was just mainstream metal, and the chorus was the absolute corniest thing I have ever heard. Definitely a no on that one...

Aphelion's song was better, but still sounded like a flowless piece with the exception of a few parts. Good technical work, though. If I ever feel like it I will listen to more songs.

Fate's Warning I just turned off after track 4. Unbearable to me, honestly. "Droning" is the best word I can think of. No interesting technique I could hear. Bass tone was obnoxious. Didn't convey any emotion to me. Does it come later in the album?? If so I will gladly continue listening.

I think I need to clarify some things. I pretty much require good technique, at minimum on the guitar. I also need time signature changes. A straight 4/4 song rarely does it for me these days. Sometimes, but rarely. It just needs to flow. The singer also can't sound too foreign or too corny. Too much reverb and echo is also strongly discouraged. I don't need to feel like I live in the 80s.

Also, some individual artists I listen to:

Guthrie Govan
(Newer) Greg Howe
A smattering of Paul Gilbert songs here and there

I also used to listen to a guy named Alessandro Benvenuti, but he got boring after awhile.

 

[Postulate]

Well, Threshold was just mainstream metal, and the chorus was the absolute corniest thing I have ever heard. Definitely a no on that one...

Aphelion's song was better, but still sounded like a flowless piece with the exception of a few parts. Good technical work, though. If I ever feel like it I will listen to more songs.

Fate's Warning I just turned off after track 4. Unbearable to me, honestly. "Droning" is the best word I can think of. No interesting technique I could hear. Bass tone was obnoxious. Didn't convey any emotion to me. Does it come later in the album?? If so I will gladly continue listening.

I think I need to clarify some things. I pretty much require good technique, at minimum on the guitar. I also need time signature changes. A straight 4/4 song rarely does it for me these days. Sometimes, but rarely. It just needs to flow. The singer also can't sound too foreign or too corny. Too much reverb and echo is also strongly discouraged. I don't need to feel like I live in the 80s.

Also, some individual artists I listen to:

Guthrie Govan
(Newer) Greg Howe
A smattering of Paul Gilbert songs here and there

I also used to listen to a guy named Alessandro Benvenuti, but he got boring after awhile.

Your requirements don't really make sense to me. How is Michael Eriksen not 'foreign?' He has an obvious Norwegian accent but sings in English. How is James LaBrie not 'corny?' He has the approach of an 80's glam rocker and often sings power ballads. And the mainstream prog metal bands you've listed as liking all tend to drown their vocalists in effects, so...

As for guitarists, to say that Jim Matheos has no 'technique' beggars belief. You can't have been listening that carefully.

I don't know, it seems to me your tastes are just extremely specific and that you aren't really quite sure what they are yourself. Regardless, I think it's beyond dispute that SX are getting more generic. According to your own above definition of 'progressive,' I'm not sure how the tracks we've heard so far off the album count as progressive in any way? Not that music has to be prog to be good obviously, but that seems to be the position you're taking, which makes it strange that you'd be defending the radio ballad. It's not terrible, it's just totally unremarkable. We've already heard this done a million times by other bands, and moreover by bands who can't make The Edge of Forever or Communion and the Oracle.

 

[Progbass]

Fate's Warning I just turned off after track 4. Unbearable to me, honestly. "Droning" is the best word I can think of. No interesting technique I could hear. Bass tone was obnoxious. Didn't convey any emotion to me. Does it come later in the album?? If so I will gladly continue listening.

The thing I've always admired about Fates Warning is, that they dont feel the need to play technical stuff just to show they are prog band. (there is some of it here and there though). I can understand how some people could find APSOG a bit slow perhaps, but I think it stays nicely in its "frame" and all players do just enough what is needed for the songs to work.

 

[Wander]

I think it's interesting that when a vocal critic like Postulate shows something he prefers, the more comparable track sounds more bland to me than the Symphony X track he was criticizing (The Threshold track, obviously - not doing anything for me). The Aphelion track is pretty cool and I do appreciate it for its musical quality although it's not the kind of music that's particularly emotionally satisfying to me.

Oh and Lepond's last year's solo album isn't generic? It could've been released in 1987 and I couldn't tell the difference! (apart from some modern produdction)

Of course, we all know that in the end this is about debating tastes. Throwing around stuff like "Symphony X is sounding more and more like Nickelback" to me is just spiteful and unfair.

My tastes will possibly differ from a lot of people from here because I actually love a lot of very structurally simple stuff and technical proficiency means little to me, and as a result, what sounds interesting to me, might not resonate with this community.

For example, this has all of three chords and I think it's absolutely wonderful:


And this is one of the best things ever:



"Generic" as a word has negative connotations, but being "generic" is not bad in itself, in the end everything will represent some corner of all the millions of subgenres generically. Forced originality doesn't mean anything either unless it actually sounds good to someone (preferably me, ha).

Oh, and because my opinion is the most important one: I like 'Without You'. It's a bit on the cheesy side, sure, but when I get frisson from music, I think it's doing something right. I wasn't into Iconoclast, but I'm feeling a lot better about this album.

 

[uhhhhmmmm4]

Plendakor, come on dude...

Wander, i had never heard of Pita but that was really.cool. I actually thought.my speakers on my phone fucked up. I had to turn something else on to make sure they werent.

Haha What was that Cat Power song name? It was cool

Yeah, I have.mixed feelings here. I like the song. It just kind of bothers me that this is the same band that wrote TEoF , Candlelight Fantasia, and TIO. I really like the song, i just feel theyre capable of much more. That said, it doesnt keep me from enjoying newer SX. I still really like them and this new single.

 

[anonym115]

@Postulate: I think Eriksen sounds great. He absolutely does not sound too foreign. In fact, I find that in general the Norwegian accent doesn't hurt a song vocally. I also have never once thought Labrie sounded corny. He isn't the greatest singer obviously, but he is exactly what DT needs. I also never said anything about singers using effects in general. I just hate the 80s sounding bad quality and thick as a brick reverb sound.

Point me to a technical part of that FW album and I will be glad to listen. I admitted to turning it off quite early.

Yes, me tastes are specific. I think that is an extremely positive thing. Also, I don't think it is negative that I can't precisely pinpoint my tastes. I'm not sure most, if anyone, can. I thought giving several pointers was enough.

I'm not even sure SX has gotten more generic with the exception of Without You, to be honest. Every song I can think of is just so different than anything else out there I can think of. Even "basic" sounding metal tracks like End of Innocence just have a strange, magic vibe I can't find elsewhere. I can't even pinpoint it.

I never defended Without You, although, for the record, I do like it, alot, but not as a prog song. I like it as a pop song, which is what it is. I don't even think it's bad SX gave pop a go (though I'd be upset if the trend continued past 2-3 songs). Never said, or even implied, that good music must be prog, either. I have yet to be pointed to a ballad that has that same kind of power. The only other ones I can name come from SX. The problem with most metal ballads is that most metal singers are just terrible in my eyes.

Look guys, Communion is a great song. A phenomenal song. Edge of Forever is also just an absolute gem. I can't name a single SX song I don't love. I like the newer stuff just like I like the older stuff. Nevermore is one of my favorite songs from them to date. I know that I can't possibly be alone when I say that I value each disc in their work as its own, unique, magic thing.

@Progbass: I don't like bands who play "just enough what is needed for the songs to work." If that is how avid fans of the band recognize them, perhaps I ought to stay away.

@Wander: Loved your first few thoughts, especially. Thanks for the shares, too. Not my cup of tea, but any opinions welcome. Your last thought about forced originality is one you share with me, for sure.

EDIT: Oh, and in no way, shape or form is Planet X better than AAL, especially Joy of Motion AAL. Come on now

 

[Wander]

Wander, i had never heard of Pita but that was really.cool. I actually thought.my speakers on my phone fucked up. I had to turn something else on to make sure they werent.

Yeah! And I've listened to some noise stuff and even within that spectrum, this track is pretty unique and, I don't know, I can just get lost in it.

Haha What was that Cat Power song name? It was cool

Nude as the News from the album "What Would the Community Think". She has a great voice and is brilliant at conveying emotions with it I reckon.

Glad you liked it.

Edit: Oh and I would love Postulate to post up a dozen or so of the millions of tracks by other bands that are just as good as 'Without You' as I quite dig the track! That'd be just great!

 

[Postulate]

I think it's interesting that when a vocal critic like Postulate shows something he prefers, the more comparable track sounds more bland to me than the Symphony X track he was criticizing (The Threshold track, obviously - not doing anything for me). The Aphelion track is pretty cool and I do appreciate it for its musical quality although it's not the kind of music that's particularly emotionally satisfying to me.

I have to disagree here. The Threshold track is somewhat novel. The SX track is just another power ballad, and is completely, utterly generic. Its melodies, especially the chorus, are also flat and uninteresting, but that's neither here nor there.

Oh and Lepond's last year's solo album isn't generic? It could've been released in 1987 and I couldn't tell the difference! (apart from some modern produdction)

These two sentences actually don't have anything to do with each other, if you reread them.

Of course, we all know that in the end this is about debating tastes. Throwing around stuff like "Symphony X is sounding more and more like Nickelback" to me is just spiteful and unfair.

It's neither spiteful nor unfair. It's perfectly accurate. It's not even a matter of opinion. You can say that in spite of that, you still like it, but that doesn't change its truth.

@Postulate: I think Eriksen sounds great. He absolutely does not sound too foreign. In fact, I find that in general the Norwegian accent doesn't hurt a song vocally. I also have never once thought Labrie sounded corny. He isn't the greatest singer obviously, but he is exactly what DT needs. I also never said anything about singers using effects in general. I just hate the 80s sounding bad quality and thick as a brick reverb sound.

All I can say to this is that if you require a singer not sound too foreign, yet think that a singer who has a blatant Norwegian accent when singing in English doesn't sound foreign, there's not much consistency or sense to your own requirements. What can they possibly mean, if thick accents aren't foreign? Not that there is anything wrong at all with accents to begin with. I mean, you'd either have to claim Eriksen doesn't have a Norwegian accent, or that...Norwegian...isn't a foreign language?

I'm not even sure SX has gotten more generic with the exception of Without You, to be honest. Every song I can think of is just so different than anything else out there I can think of. Even "basic" sounding metal tracks like End of Innocence just have a strange, magic vibe I can't find elsewhere. I can't even pinpoint it.

This is just not true. Many of SX's tracks on the previous couple of albums have been quite generic -- I know a lot of us felt our hearts sink when we first heard Set the World on Fire, for example. A kind of "oh, shit..." feeling. Thing is, SX has always had at least little snippets that save even the mediocre tracks from being a waste, but even that seems to have been lost here. As the lyrics say -- "Sometimes I feel, feel like there's nothing there."

EDIT: Oh, and in no way, shape or form is Planet X better than AAL, especially Joy of Motion AAL. Come on now

AAL is fine, but they're not in the same league as Planet X. I'm surprised that you would defend them, of all bands, after all the talk of disliking things that are 'flowless' or abuse 'prog' structures just for the sake of it. If any band is culpable of that, surely it is AAL. Which again, leads me to think your views on this matter aren't really consistent, and that you just have really specific tastes that you can't articulate.

But honestly, I think time erases these biases. Good music reveals its power more and more with each listen, and bad music shrinks. No one is going to give a shit about Without You in two years, but The Edge of Forever is still incredible 20 years on. The same goes for individual listeners. At specific times we have pet loves for specific bands so we defend everything that comes out of their assholes. But time and repeated listening just can't hold up what isn't good, regardless of your love for the band or how bad you want it to be good.

[Point me to a technical part of that FW album and I will be glad to listen. I admitted to turning it off quite early.

All of APSoG is highly technical, but often in subtle ways. The whole thing is incredible.

 

[AsoTamaki]

Fate's Warning I just turned off after track 4. Unbearable to me, honestly. "Droning" is the best word I can think of. No interesting technique I could hear. Bass tone was obnoxious. Didn't convey any emotion to me. Does it come later in the album?? If so I will gladly continue listening.

I think I need to clarify some things. I pretty much require good technique, at minimum on the guitar. I also need time signature changes. A straight 4/4 song rarely does it for me these days. Sometimes, but rarely. It just needs to flow.

What's your definition of "good technique" on the guitar? If it's shredding leads, complex chord fingerings, etc. then no, you won't find any of that. There are only two tracks with guitar solos (VI and IX) and both can be played by an early intermediate or likely even beginner guitarist. It's not a guitar album. The vocals, guitar, drums, keyboards and even bass (hence the prominent, "obnoxious" tone it was given) are equal contributors to the music as a whole. From a "technical" standpoint, the drumming is the closest you'll get to a virtuosic performance. And that's still mostly stuff you won't pick up on unless you're paying close attention. Nothing over the top and in your face.

The first three tracks are indeed 4/4. Parts V-VIII contain the most overtly "prog" sections of the album. All of those include multiple time signature changes so you stopped listening exactly at the wrong moment, I suppose. But really, I doubt you will find much enjoyment based on what you've written here. As a fan of the genre (at least in broad terms), however, it's one of those albums that you should commit to listening to from start to finish at least once. Consider it education.

...

As for "Without You", I like it less each time I listen to be honest. The whole thing is written as if it can't wait to reach the chorus and then come back to it...again and again. The transition back to it after the instrumental section/bridge is beyond weak. And then the by-the-numbers "repeat the last chorus twice the usual length" to end the song...man. Yeah, it's "big" and is catchy or whatever, but come on. There's no need for anyone to want to ever play the song numerous times if they can hear the damn thing 10 times with just one listen. That type of song gets old really quick. I hope to God it doesn't become a live staple.

 

[Isaac_de_Moorea]

-- I know a lot of us felt our hearts sink when we first heard Set the World on Fire, for example. A kind of "oh, shit..." feeling. Thing is, SX has always had at least little snippets that save even the mediocre tracks from being a waste, but even that seems to have been lost here. As the lyrics say -- "Sometimes I feel, feel like there's nothing there."


But honestly, I think time erases these biases. Good music reveals its power more and more with each listen, and bad music shrinks. No one is going to give a shit about Without You in two years, but The Edge of Forever is still incredible 20 years on. The same goes for individual listeners. At specific times we have pet loves for specific bands so we defend everything that comes out of their assholes. But time and repeated listening just can't hold up what isn't good, regardless of your love for the band or how bad you want it to be good.

I will stand with you about these.

Yeah, I have.mixed feelings here. I like the song. It just kind of bothers me that this is the same band that wrote TEoF , Candlelight Fantasia, and TIO. I really like the song, i just feel theyre capable of much more. That said, it doesnt keep me from enjoying newer SX. I still really like them and this new single.

I think we are overestimating their capabilites. Not because they can´t write stuff like that anymore, it´s just because they are not in the best situation to, so they capacities to attract some of us are "naturally" diminished. They were young, all was music. Now, I think it is quite possible they see music and life different. It´s just a guess, but it´s so repetitive among music industry. I can´t think about any artist who in some way hasn´t been deceptive to a group of fans in anyway.

 

[Wander]

I'm saying Lepond's solo album would've been generic and without new ideas already in 1987. Perhaps I should've been more clear (But I will say again that this isn't necessarily bad thing although I'm not super into the style of that album or the type of bands it's imitating).

 

[Postulate]

What's your definition of "good technique" on the guitar? If it's shredding leads, complex chord fingerings, etc. then no, you won't find any of that. There are only two tracks with guitar solos (VI and IX) and both can be played by an early intermediate or likely even beginner guitarist. It's not a guitar album. The vocals, guitar, drums, keyboards and even bass (hence the prominent, "obnoxious" tone it was given) are equal contributors to the music as a whole. From a "technical" standpoint, the drumming is the closest you'll get to a virtuosic performance. And that's still mostly stuff you won't pick up on unless you're paying close attention. Nothing over the top and in your face.

The first three tracks are indeed 4/4. Parts V-VIII contain the most overtly "prog" sections of the album. All of those include multiple time signature changes so you stopped listening exactly at the wrong moment, I suppose. But really, I doubt you will find much enjoyment based on what you've written here. As a fan of the genre (at least in broad terms), however, it's one of those albums that you should commit to listening to from start to finish at least once. Consider it education.

...

As for "Without You", I like it less each time I listen to be honest. The whole thing is written as if it can't wait to reach the chorus and then come back to it...again and again. The transition back to it after the instrumental section/bridge is beyond weak. And then the by-the-numbers "repeat the last chorus twice the usual length" to end the song...man. Yeah, it's "big" and is catchy or whatever, but come on. There's no need for anyone to want to ever play the song numerous times if they can hear the damn thing 10 times with just one listen. That type of song gets old really quick. I hope to God it doesn't become a live staple.

III is in 4/4 but has changes in subdivision from 3/3/2 to 4/4. All of IV is all in weird time, and the double breakdown is jaw-dropping. But yeah, it then gets insane at V-VIII. It would take forever to write about everything going on in the album. It's an album that gives more with each listen.

 

[Xtopher]

The fact that the wife of the OP guy liked this song but hates every other SX song says a lot about "Without You". It's not a true SX song, just another pop ballad you could find on the radio. It's too mediocre for their standards.