Nightwish thoughts/rants

[Oceansoul Troll]

Just some shit on my mind and I have no idea where I'm going with this so it might come across as mindless ranting with no real direction....

I'd really love for Nightwish to strip it down next album. Kinda chill out with the orchestra stuff. The weird thing is that it's not even a complaint. I love Imaginaerum, it's a great album and one of my favorites. I'm also sure that
Tuomas could top that if he wanted to. He writes music from the heart and yet always challenges himself while not letting money influence him so I always have trust in him when it comes to writing a great album. I just personaly, i guess selfishly want a stripped down version. Oceanborn, that album. Remember that album? That album is like getting a really good blow job while playing Castlevania during a crazy acid trip. There was no full blown orchestra in the background that was needed.
Tuomas kicked that album in it's ass on keyboards and you know who else had a great showing? That blonde hair guitarist. What's his name? I forget, it's been so long since he stood out. Seriously, any regular session guitarist can come in and get the job done for Emppu and this point. It's to the point that the guitar riffs feel recycled, like you could swear you've heard them before. Whether this is Emppu being lazy or Tuomas not really needing it, I dont know. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to Emppu on this one though. The orchestra stuff is cool and it's well written and well done I just hope we can get an album where it's chilled out a little. Maybe only a few songs with a full orchestra. I know something like Oceanborn can't be created again without Tarja but I just want a stripped down version where the 4 guys in the band stand out. I want real guitar riffs and keyboards that mind fuck me. At the end of the day though, I'm not bitchin. I really do love Imaginaerum, it's one of my favorite albums ever from any band and I know that if Tuomas were to go with the full orchestra yet again, it'll be epic and well done. Hey, I'm just sayin.

 

[C.]

I believe he said in a recent interview that they are considering doing an acoustic album or something more in the direction that you are describing, so maybe Tuomas can read your mind?

 

[Mooki]

Just a little something I want to say here: I used to obsess with Oceanborn, but after Imaginaerum, I have to say I've grown tired of it, lol. I still like it and I do appreciate it, but sometimes I think fans obsess over the album too much like it's holy and cannot be touched. It's a great album in it's own right and yeah, it can't be reproduced, but I dunno...I'm enjoying the orchestra and its dynamics more these days. The same can be said for Wishmaster, but to be fair Wishmaster often felt like NW were trying to reproduce the sound of Oceanborn.

 

[Traxan]

My only rant is the tour behind Imaginaerum. WTF kinda of chaos is this?

Release it in part of the world in November, but not until January in the U.S.

Do a massive show in the U.S. that gets great press. Then, other than a cruise, disappear for 3 months.

Start a tour in Europe and Russia. Don't tour the U.S. until 9 months after the album comes out.

What in the world are they thinking?

 

[C.]

^I would think a lot of that had to do with the filming/production of the movie. I am pretty sure they were not resting on their laurels in the least.

Mooki: I totally agree about Oceanborn; it's a great album, but I do tend to think that fans set it on this high pedestal like it's the most perfect thing ever written; as if the band has spent the rest of their career trying to outdo it. I'd have to say that I prefer Wishmaster, if only for the fact that it's the only Nightwish album that has all-female vocals on it (other than the few parts of "Dead Boy's Poem" and "The Kinslayer"). I also don't get where a lot of fans complain about the orchestra; even from their earliest works a listener can tell that this is the sound they were heading towards all along.

 

[Disaster445]

I'm sure the whole orchestration thing is what Tuomas has been aiming for all these years. Don't forget that he has a love for film score music which is most of the time modern orchestral work. Nightwish is different from other classically influenced bands because Bach and John Williams are two different things. One influence you will get neo-classical metal and the other you get symphonic metal and more particularily, an album like Imaginaerum. At least Tuomas isn't being cheesey with the orchestration, keyboards, etc. *cough* rhapsody *cough cough*

And as for wanting an album like Oceanborn, I think it's too late now that Tarja's gone...

Just my thoughts on it all.

 

[C.]

Welcome to the board!

Well, it has been said that Imaginaerum is "Anette's Oceanborn", so time will tell, I suppose. Albums always tend to get elevated to legendary status when they are still new; it's if people are still saying it 3 or 4 albums from now when it will probably hold more weight.

Personally, I have never wanted repeats of albums (yes, I know that Wishmaster---my favorite Nightwish album---was considered "Oceanborn Pt. 2", but I always looked at that as a more evolved or mature extension of Oceanborn, if I'm explaining myself well enough). To me, an album loses its special something if we know that it's what the band will keep on giving us time and time again. Would we hold Oceanborn in such high regard if the band kept on making that same album all these years later, or if there had never been a Once or DPP?

 

[Oceansoul Troll]

Oceanborn isn't my favorite Nightwish album but I like how it's just the band jammin and makin music. I'd like them to stand out again instead of being pushed back by the orchestra.

 

[Taimi]

Oceanborn isn't my favorite Nightwish album but I like how it's just the band jammin and makin music. I'd like them to stand out again instead of being pushed back by the orchestra.

I agree. half the time, the only thing you really hear as far as band is drums. Right now, I'm listening to Sahara, and I hear little bit of band and HUGE orchestra.

How about instead of releasing orchestral versions of the albums, they release stripped down versions, for those of us that want to hear the 5 CORE members of Nightwish and not the 106 piece orchestra instead? Going to leave that right there, because I will go off on a serious tangent otherwise.

 

[C.]

^That's a good point; the orchestral versions of songs are interesting, and I like hearing them...but at that point, wouldn't they be "The London Symphony Orchestra" covering Nightwish songs? Because at that point, the only thing Nightwish about the songs are that they're written by Tuomas. But the orchestral versions aren't being performed by anyone else in the band.

I agree that it would be very interesting to hear "full band versions" of those songs that are more on the orchestral side; to hear how they might have sounded if they'd had to do without an orchestra and add on certain components themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I like the orchestra and I like what it's brought to the music...but I also agree with the sentiment of many that with each album it's become more and more of a London Symphony Orchestra feat. Nightwish sort of project, rather than the other way around.

 

[BaraHime]

How about instead of releasing orchestral versions of the albums, they release stripped down versions, for those of us that want to hear the 5 CORE members of Nightwish and not the 106 piece orchestra instead?

Because the tracks would be thus: 00:00 ~ 01:45 - silence. 01:46 ~ 01:66 - intermittent playing by the band. 01:67 ~ 02:88 - more silence... 02:89 ~ 02:94 - a few quick drumbeats from Jukka. 02:95 ~ 03:76 - MORE F#@%ING SILENCE!! ...And so on and so forth... Poor little Emppu... I wish he'd just quit and get a real job where he's appreciated. Nightwish just keeps him around for company I think. And when you could be replaced by a puppy, it's time to move on... They have an incredible guitarist, a beast for a bassist, (though granted, Marco couldn't play anything too outrageous when he's singing also. Well, he could, but it would mess with his stage presence, I think, but he doesn't need to sing in EVERY song, now does he?) I'm going to give Jukka the benefit of a doubt and assume he's being stifled as well, since from what I've heard he's tried to put better drum work in their songs in the past and was always shot down by Hitle - Errr - Tuomas. :Shedevil: And speaking of Tuomas, he's giving himself boring parts lately too! Was he even playing on DPP at all? I heard him in FTHIWH aaannnnddd.... Where else? It wasn't as bad on Irum, but it's still sad to see them wasting their talent playing second violin to the orchestra. "Second." I think they're closer to the ninth violin, at this point. They're backing up the backup tape. I love the orchestra, but why the hell does Tuomas just refuse to let them play WITH it as opposed to just gingerly tip-toeing around it as though it will bite them if anyone hears them playing?

...Dear god that was trollish... I'm sorry. Kinda...

 

[C.]

^I get what you mean, but when I say "full band versions", I mean just that: a version of the song where the band was playing the same song, but without those particular elements.

Let me give you an example of one song done on piano, and then the "full band" version. As you can plainly hear, it is the same song, but done very differently.




The "full band" version:




Hear the difference?

(Btw, these were put up as a way to show an example of what I'm saying, not for whether or not anyone likes this music or this particular song that I used in my example.)

 

[BaraHime]

^ Ah. From what Taimi said it sounded like she was wanting the reverse of the orchestral versions, which would be no orchestra and just the band playing in the gaps. But yeah, if the band was playing the orchestra's bits themselves that would be great!

 

[C.]

That might have been what she meant, but something like what I was referring to was what I had in mind.

 

[Taimi]

Yeah, I want to hear a more polished version of the demos haha. The demo for Storytime was fucking amazing, then you get the actual song, and the whole feeling of the song is lost in an instant.

 

[C.]

^Yeah, I was thinking that too; that the "full band" versions might sound more like the demos.

 

[Taimi]

^Yeah, I was thinking that too; that the "full band" versions might sound more like the demos.

One of my biggest gripes about Imaginaerum is the lackluster quality of the BAND itsself which seems to be emphasized by the oversaturation of the orchestra.

 

[C.]

^That's why I put up those 2 examples, to show how a song can still get across the same point when the entire band is playing as opposed to when there is an orchestra (or a piano, or whatever). I realize there was no orchestra involved in the examples I used, but certainly Tuomas has effects on his keyboards that could compensate for that?

 

[Taimi]

^That's why I put up those 2 examples, to show how a song can still get across the same point when the entire band is playing as opposed to when there is an orchestra (or a piano, or whatever). I realize there was no orchestra involved in the examples I used, but certainly Tuomas has effects on his keyboards that could compensate for that?

Just because he SHOULD doesn't mean he didn't have those effects removed or disabled when he had them recased at the Korg factory/ had them reprogrammed outside of Korg. I know that can be done.

 

[BaraHime]

And that still doesn't mean he has the sense to use them even if he had them. Case in point: The violin solo in The Siren. "Oh no, we need to do a violin solo with no violin, which instrument should cover for a lilting string.... The characteristically warbling guitar of Emppu? No, no, he'll be busy wandering aimlessly about the stage at that point... Oh! I know! The keyboard! Resonant metal is a PERFECT replacement for a string instrument! Much better than another string!" ...Poor Emppu wrote part of that song even, and rather than giving his STRING INSTRUMENT the @#%$ing STRING SOLO they gave it to Tuomas. /pout