minxnim
meow
hmm so i mean is it somewhat close to the 'anarchist' idea of voluntary cooperation with just a few dudes whose job it is to really keep an eye on stuff?
not that many people vote on polls.
- Thread starter ezekiel
- Start date
deadair
Overly-Cryptic Jake
well... not THAT close to anarchist...
but, well... (gezzz, typing out ideals is not as easy as talking about them).
think of a more controled "everyone fend for yourself". the government is not there to hold your hand. like in the case of laws that "protect us from ourselves"... (simple ex. would be the helmet law).
but, well... (gezzz, typing out ideals is not as easy as talking about them).
think of a more controled "everyone fend for yourself". the government is not there to hold your hand. like in the case of laws that "protect us from ourselves"... (simple ex. would be the helmet law).
minxnim
meow
oh okay i see what you mean. that's interesting, i never really though of a situation like that... but i mean, wouldnt it be hard for the typical 'drunk with power' capitalist american to deal with a government position and not try to force control on people to a degree? maybe i'm being a pessimist. i just always figure that people want more and more control when they get even a little and it feels good.
avi
W3RK3R
I think it's good in theory, but there's so many idiots out there that truly need laws to protect them from themselves.
deadair
Overly-Cryptic Jake
oh yea... with how dependant the US is on their government right now... it would never work.
their would be SOOO many people lost with out the maze the gov. sets up for them. plus, all the people dependant on the gov. for hands outs would be screaming mad.
their would be SOOO many people lost with out the maze the gov. sets up for them. plus, all the people dependant on the gov. for hands outs would be screaming mad.
deadair
Overly-Cryptic Jake
i know...
it's exactly why communism doesn't work either...
looks good on paper, but doesn't work out in practice.
deadair
Overly-Cryptic Jake
minxnim
meow
sucks that it always seems to come down to 'oh everyone is too dumb to handle the change'. like, a huge change, even to the green aprty standard, would leave a lot of people stuttering and stumbling around in the streets not knowing what to do with themselves. eric fromm (i think i spelled his name wrong) totally tackled this is 'escape from freedom'. like, people don't want to be free. it causes possibly insanity/happiness.
minxnim
meow
also, wilhelm reich kicked ASS on this topic in 'listen little man!' which i think is possibly one of the most motivating books in existence.
avi
W3RK3R
personally, I think a good government should help look after its people and their well-being, but I totally understand the libertarian view, too. Both are totally valid, but I just think it's more practical and 'morally sound' (just my opinion) to go the first route.
minxnim
meow
it would be a lot easier to ask your government to look after you and other people if everyone wasn't so mentally freaking damaged that passive aggression ruled the school. it's like, everyone is out to get everyone else. it's so lame.
i'm such a total idealist it's pathetic. i sit around thinking 'everyone just wants to be happy. what is wrong with you people?'.
i'm such a total idealist it's pathetic. i sit around thinking 'everyone just wants to be happy. what is wrong with you people?'.
FuSoYa
Lunarian
I was thinking the other day that it would be awesome if Kerry was elected president, because he's so fucked up looking that all the political cartoons and caricatures of him would be amazing.
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
The big problem with the Libertarian party is that in terms of corporate control, it's like the Republican Party x10. Libertarian philosophy presupposes that private enterprise will step up to fulfill the roles vacated by the government....maintaining the roads, police force, social welfare-type systems, firemen, schools, even, to a degree, the courts. Do you want your house to burn to the ground because you didn't engage in a firefighter contract? Do you want a corporation to arrest, try, imprison, and possibly even execute you for damaging their interests? Hell, no.
I don't like ex-military presidents because, frankly, the military fucks your mind up....it's SUPPOSED to. That's what boot camp and super-discipline and all that is for: to get you to think in a certain way, a way in which following orders without resorting to questioning your conscience is paramount.
Kerry's the worst kind of anti-war person, from what I know of him. He's all about war, but not SPECIFIC wars. He signed up for the military, "but not Vietnam! that war is unjust!". He doesn't really have a problem with wholesale killing, but he doesn't like when that killing doesn't align with his particular politics. "Worst kind of anti-war person" is better than the best kind of war person, I suppose, but that's the best I can say about him.
I don't like ex-military presidents because, frankly, the military fucks your mind up....it's SUPPOSED to. That's what boot camp and super-discipline and all that is for: to get you to think in a certain way, a way in which following orders without resorting to questioning your conscience is paramount.
Kerry's the worst kind of anti-war person, from what I know of him. He's all about war, but not SPECIFIC wars. He signed up for the military, "but not Vietnam! that war is unjust!". He doesn't really have a problem with wholesale killing, but he doesn't like when that killing doesn't align with his particular politics. "Worst kind of anti-war person" is better than the best kind of war person, I suppose, but that's the best I can say about him.
minxnim
meow
"I don't like ex-military presidents because, frankly, the military fucks your mind up...."
your opinion of kerry aside, i think this statement is hysterical. personalities vary. no one reacts to war the same. do you think my father would react the same as kerry or my grandfather who was in WWII for 2 years? obviously not. nor the same as gore. so saying that it fucks up your mind and then saying that this 'fuck up' is somehow geared toward being pro-war means, well, you must not know too many veterans? i volunteer at the VA hospital once a month and let me tell you... about 80% of the guys i talk to say they are 'scared to death' for soldiers that have to go to war, and they would do anything they could to prevent it from happening. i've spent a lot of time throughout my life with my dad and his friends at the VFW sort of listening in. i haven't heard any of them be like "yea let's attack those motherfuckers!!!!". you're obviously thinking of some 'type' of veteran. i obviously don't mingle with that class of them i guess.
your opinion of kerry aside, i think this statement is hysterical. personalities vary. no one reacts to war the same. do you think my father would react the same as kerry or my grandfather who was in WWII for 2 years? obviously not. nor the same as gore. so saying that it fucks up your mind and then saying that this 'fuck up' is somehow geared toward being pro-war means, well, you must not know too many veterans? i volunteer at the VA hospital once a month and let me tell you... about 80% of the guys i talk to say they are 'scared to death' for soldiers that have to go to war, and they would do anything they could to prevent it from happening. i've spent a lot of time throughout my life with my dad and his friends at the VFW sort of listening in. i haven't heard any of them be like "yea let's attack those motherfuckers!!!!". you're obviously thinking of some 'type' of veteran. i obviously don't mingle with that class of them i guess.
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
so saying that it fucks up your mind and then saying that this 'fuck up' is somehow geared toward being pro-war means
I didn't say that at all...
I didn't say that at all...
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
minxnim
meow
you didn't explicitly say it at all, but that doesn't really matter considering that the tone of what you were saying was essentially just that. i mean, are you denying it?
such as:
"I don't like ex-military presidents because, frankly, the military fucks your mind up....it's SUPPOSED to. That's what boot camp and super-discipline and all that is for: to get you to think in a certain way, a way in which following orders without resorting to questioning your conscience is paramount."
was this supposed to be like, oh i mean, some people not all of them and maybe not most or something! i don't care about semantics. the tone is obvious.
such as:
"I don't like ex-military presidents because, frankly, the military fucks your mind up....it's SUPPOSED to. That's what boot camp and super-discipline and all that is for: to get you to think in a certain way, a way in which following orders without resorting to questioning your conscience is paramount."
was this supposed to be like, oh i mean, some people not all of them and maybe not most or something! i don't care about semantics. the tone is obvious.
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
I didn't say the military makes you extraordinarily pro-war.
I said in order to be a part of the military, you have to be forced into a particular mindset. You have to think like everyone else in there, and that universal mode of thought is pretty fucked up.
When people leave the military, some stay that way, and some don't. But something remains with them the rest of their lives, and they remain the sort of person who, at one point, were capable of some pretty awful things.
It's a fucking tragedy that our world requires that of people.
I said in order to be a part of the military, you have to be forced into a particular mindset. You have to think like everyone else in there, and that universal mode of thought is pretty fucked up.
When people leave the military, some stay that way, and some don't. But something remains with them the rest of their lives, and they remain the sort of person who, at one point, were capable of some pretty awful things.
It's a fucking tragedy that our world requires that of people.
minxnim
meow
well, you know. i guess to a degree i agree, but at the same time, (especially in the cases of PTSD patients) people can go the opposite way. like my dad and a bunch of dudes starting a commune and shit. i mean, it takes a free thinker to do it, and i admit that my dad already had major social problems with authority before he was drafted... but it's very relative. i dont think kerry is as bad as he seems. i dont think he's the answer to our problems either.
BUT, i guess if i was going to be forced to go to war, i'd probably want someone who knew a little about it there. after all, the president is the head of the military, technically speaking.
BUT, i guess if i was going to be forced to go to war, i'd probably want someone who knew a little about it there. after all, the president is the head of the military, technically speaking.
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
I think some people really strive against that sort of thought and largely succeed. I mean, I'm really into the whole redemption thing, and people being able to change and be what they want to be. Kerry is proud of his service, though...possibly because his political resurgence was in a large part due to veterans connections, but possibly also because he's, well, down with war.
I think Kerry's a better choice than Gore, and certainly better than Bush. I'd love to have a liberal in the White House...I might end up voting Kerry in 2004 if he makes it in the race.
I don't think it's hugely important that a President know what he's doing in war. I think Bush is doing a great job warwise. All you need is advisors who know what to do in war, and Bush has those up the wazoo. It just seems that our country is slowly heading toward a sort of Starship Trooperian "you must have military service to lead us" mode (if not by law than by popular mandate), which is hugely awful.
I think Kerry's a better choice than Gore, and certainly better than Bush. I'd love to have a liberal in the White House...I might end up voting Kerry in 2004 if he makes it in the race.
I don't think it's hugely important that a President know what he's doing in war. I think Bush is doing a great job warwise. All you need is advisors who know what to do in war, and Bush has those up the wazoo. It just seems that our country is slowly heading toward a sort of Starship Trooperian "you must have military service to lead us" mode (if not by law than by popular mandate), which is hugely awful.
