OT: Bands, venues and pay

[Loren Littlejohn]

This was being discussed over at the HC boards but I thought it was a good off topic to go ahead and post up over here.

How often is it a hastle for your unsigned band to get paid? I swear to god bar owners are some of the cheapest bastards walking the planet. The idea that you go, usually do all the setting up, and sometimes have to supply the PA and then get nothing but a percentage of the door. Playing live is work, even if you like it same goes for recording.

How do you deal with it? Do you just say "hang it" on playing gigs without a pre determined fee.

Discuss.

 

[broken81]

omg its unbelievable these clubs are scamming bastards...

Its funny cause some places will pay you like 400 bucks and they still make a killing off beer and alcohol and are not afraid to tell you that. Then some places charge at the door and sell liquor and then tell you there to broke to pay you which is complete bullshit.You bring them all this business when you play (good bands anyway) and you promote your shows and put all this work in to have some asshole lie to your face and jip you out of your hard earned money.

It's almost mandatory to set up a deal upfront and were about to start doing contracts if we get fucked anymore. That or I'm going to hire someone huge guy and just have them treaten to whoop there ass cause that would probably work just as well

 

[egan.]

This isn't a problem exclusively for unsigned bands.
I have seen clubs baulk w/ contracts and riders in place for (inter)national tours of signed acts....actually I've seen it happen in detroit.

 

[AudioPhile777]

Hollywood is the worst...

...There's venues like The Whisky, The KeyClub and The Roxy that have you presell tickets...

...and if you're a band that is just starting out, you're basically paying to entertain people because there is almost no way you're going to sell 100 tickets for $12... unless you have a huge family and/or tons of friends... not to mention if your guests aren't at least 21, they get charged for "drink tickets" as part of their admission...

 

[madbutcher]

Hollywood is the worst...

...There's venues like The Whisky, The KeyClub and The Roxy that have you presell tickets...

Same situation here in St louis...... it sucks.

 

[XtremeParanoia]

Some larger venues here aren't bad about tickets. It's usually smaller venues and local shows at Pop's ("bigger venue") that have bands scrambling to sell tickets.

In general, however, I agree that far to often there is clubs swindling bands out of money that they generate for the club.

 

[Nebulous]

Maybe they're sitting there counting their money going "pfft, nothing compared to what the band would have made in merch and CD sales!" ....

 

[Kazrog]

Our band is struggling with this issue. We were just talking about this tonight at band practice. The "promoters" here in California (most of the time) don't even promote the show, they just collect money from the bands and expect the bands to do everything (make flyers, sell tickets, put out ads, whatever it takes!) Don't get me wrong, we like promoting ourselves and we're good at it, but if we're paying somebody, they should be fucking helping us at the very least!

I'm sick of it. Paying to play is retarded. I wonder what would happen if every band out there stood up against this policy, and demanded money the same way a fucking DJ does. Most DJs get paid more than bands and have MUCH lower overhead being only one person. It's fucked up.

This all being said, I think the reason pay-for-play exists is because there are so many shitty local bands out there. Bands who drive people away from clubs. People who can't play shouldn't start bands, they need to go back to rock school, learn to shred, and start a band once they've earned their License to Rock. When I first started at guitar, at least I knew I sucked, and I didn't try to start a band until I knew I had gotten some chops under my built.

I've got a rider drafted up for us, I've just never busted out with it. I've always wondered what would happen if I did. Next time we play LA I'm going to layeth the smacketh down with the rider and see what happens...

 

[Razorjack]

We aren't going to play without a signed contract, we are including a rider in it just to see if the venue/promoter have actually read the contract.

We intend to make all our money on merch/CD sales though, since even if we do get paid for a gig it won't cover expenses for all 5 band members and 4 crew!!

 

[Nebulous]

In Australia there is a backlash against Pay-to-play promoters. I can't remember the name of them, but there is a promoter in New South Wales who has that policy, and many bands refuse to play their gigs.

 

[Noumenon]

Over here it's mostly pay-to-play. Which sucks.
There are some places though were you get the entire entry fee.

 

[kaomao]

Hey people this situation is all over the planet!
Even here you have to promote your band and bring a lot of people to the show if you want to play.
I stopped doing that, it's not my business bringing people to the club/bar, I'm not the owner, he has to do promoting and such.
If stupid young bands keep on bringing a lot of friends because the bar's owner said that, well this is really the ruin of bands like mine that are not a hischool/college band anymore and don't have these so called "friends" to play in front of.
as soon I finished Hischool I never met again this so called "friends", now I have my few trusty friends I couldn't ask all the times "hey come to the show".
I'm waitin for a record deal and tour that's it. If I can find a bar I have to not struggle with to play I'm fine, if not I won't play that's for sure.

 

[elmuchoescadawg]

Im not saying its right just asking the question but if you 'pay to play' then isnt that you becoming the promoter of the show?

Ive gotta ask cos I dont play in a band but do you guys see pay to play and buy ons for tours being different?

 

[::XeS::]

Wow...this situation is really all over the planet, as Kaomao said.
Some year ago my friends play in a local pub and the owner in the afternoon said "hey guys, my policy is: if you can attract much people, a percentage is for you at the end! ...When they play the pub was full, river of beer, etc... but we didn't see a cent ".
Another fucking ridicolous thing in Italy, is that some owners pay a shitty cover band 800€ and more for a fucking show before the disco night, like an intro...and some band do this as a work. I don't know why this fucking owners pay those cover bands when people don't come there for the band but for the disco/house music after the cover show, and never pay bands (that play song they write...not shitty covers) that play in front of people that come to see the band, to see the show...
It's very sad, because you write songs, you reharse, you try to play live...and no one pay you for the work...and a bands that play song from other people are payed.

 

[Wadi]

OMG! Its a worlwide epidemic!

 

[discordless]

not the case in romania
paying to play? thats fucked up!

 

[kaomao]

not the case in romania
paying to play? thats fucked up!

No well I think people telling pay-to-play mean: you have to put flyers around the town at your expense, do advertisement and such at your expense as well, while the owner just doesn't do anything to promote his bar/club.

 

[sparkyness]

Sad state of affairs, but it's been that way for a long time and is the same in the 4 countries in which I've lived. There's little to no chance that a club owner or promoter is going to pay an unestablished band any reasonable amount of money unless there's a guaranteed return in it for them. If one band won't pay to play, they know that someone else usually will. While it appears unethical from a musicians standpoint, that carries little weight from the club owners perspective. I don't agree with it, but that's the business model that exists, and unless there's a dramatic turnaround in attitude it'll stay that way.

Before I left Australia, I sold my soul to the cover-band devil for a couple of years to earn a living as there's basically no money for an unestablished band playing original music. Most of my friends who were in established bands that made money (in one case the band has had 2 number one albums in Oz) still suplimented their income by doing covers as well. You wind up hating yourself the majority of the time but between gigs (if you can pull a crowd) and doing sessions I made a decent living. In the end it got so soul destroying that I quit and moved abroad and and am much happier working a well paying/low stress day gig and working on music projects of choice (rather than economic necessity) at evenings and weekends. C'est la vie.

One good alternative to pay to play gigs are benefit shows. If you're politically aware and/or have friends who work for registered charities that you'd like to support, you could possibly explore that avenue. While you won't pay to play, it also shouldn't cost you anything. In some cases, if it's a registered charity they usually have "events funding" that will cover your transport/equipment costs (receipts required). Some of the best shows I've ever had were benefit gigs. I turned up to a show in the middle of nowhere not expecting much to find 5,500 people there and we sold every CD we had with us.

 

[deanbailey]

I'm not sure if they do this in other countries but in South Africa, some bars have a policy that if the bar makes R1000 (+/-150 US dollars) off alcohol the bands get to keep the money at the door, IF one band is organizing the event. And sometimes contracts are signed. I guess both bands and bars have realised that they need each other

But usually its one person/label/promoter doing organizing at a venue like "civic centers,school halls, church halls etc" where in this case they just pay to rent the venue, and split entrance between AE's, bands and if not profit then to break even for advertising.

But to fill up a venue, organizers will have a variety of bands in the lineup. So its rarely just a metal show, or Indie show etc plus the scene here is a little small to have genre based shows.

 

[nwright]

I think that in metal, pretty much everything sucks in terms of money! Since the crowd/demographic is smaller, bands don't make as much, IMO anyway. Guarantees for popular metal bands are still relatively low compared to the big acts of yesteryear. So you have a trickle down effect to local/regional or unsigned metal acts...Which means no money!

We've been direct support for what I'd call "big" names in metal (Anthrax, Arch Enemy, God Forbid, LoG, Unearth and a ton more), and it's always varied, but never really that much (mmm, say 150 bucks to play the show). But, we get no stipulations on merch sales and we keep 100% of our merch profits at the venues (which isn't always the case at some).

In Indianapolis, most of the bands in the scene have a staunch "no pay to play" stance and any promoter viewed as a pay to play promoter gets a bad rep pretty quickly. We still have some bands who do pay to play fests (Milwaukee Metal Fest comes to mind), but pay to play has pretty much been ran out of town here, or never really taken off. Most bands just play for free. We have a pretty good all ages venue in which some good nationals come through. For locals, they have a deal set up based on draw. There are no alcohol sales, so door money is the only source of income (aside from sodas, etc.). The more bodies through the door, the more percentage the band makes. At bar venues where we've done well, we get a pretty decent amount. At one bar that's kinda become our "hometown", as the headliner we get ALL the money that goes to the bands and decide among ourselves how much the opening bands get. We usually split it 40/30/30.

Any time we host shows or book our own headlining show, we in effect become the promoters, even at established venues. As such, we always try to treat the out of town bands to a cut first...They drove the farthest, have the most to risk, so we want to compensate them first. So, when we show trade and play their city, hopefully they will reciprocate. At times, we've even taken from our own merch profits and given moeny to bands if the draw didn't generate enough revenue.