OT: Origin of power metal-style double bass

[Wounded Land]

I've been thinking lately about the origin of the double-bass technique utilized by many power metal bands, that is, playing a steady stream of eighth- or sixteenth-notes on the bass drums throughout a verse or chorus. Who was the first person to do this? I know that Ginger Baker used double-bass in solos (I'm thinking of "Toad" off of "Wheels of Fire") and occasionally for accents, and I know that there is some on Mahavishnu Orchestra albums, but who was the first rock drummer to do it? I'm looking for a specific album/track here.

Thanks in advance.

NP: Kotipelto "Coldness"

 

[Joe-×]

I've been thinking lately about the origin of the double-bass technique utilized by many power metal bands ... I'm looking for a specific album/track here.

Don't know about rock music, but for power metal, it all started with Accept - Fast as a Shark.

Joe

 

[Wounded Land]

Don't know about rock music, but for power metal, it all started with Accept - Fast as a Shark.

Joe

I'm understanding "rock" as a generic term that includes metal as a subset.
Thanks for your answer! That helps!

 

[Joe-×]

I'm understanding "rock" as a generic term that includes metal as a subset.
Thanks for your answer! That helps!

It's difficult to nail it down in rock. Double bass drums started showing up at the same time, but so few of the dudes actually played them. They were mostly just for looks - like the hair metal guys in the 80's. They'd change pedals from time to time just to save on wear and tear, ha ha. I think Keith Moon was the first rock dude to play on a major stage with double bass drums, but I doubt he played them at all. He was too much of a hack. If you cornered me and made me give you an absolute answer, I'd go with Ginger Baker on Cream's Disraeli Gears. I think he was the first big name dude to play with the RLRLRL pattern in rock. The double bass in White Room, from Wheels of Fire, kicks butt. I'd put my money on Ginger; he hated Jack Bruce and his damned double bass so much that he had to have his own, ha ha. Prior to rock, you gotta go with Louie Bellson. He invented it.

Joe

 

[Daybreaker]

Motley Crue. Tommy might not have been THE first but he was definitely in the forefront of original double bass users.

 

[Wounded Land]

I know that Ginger Baker did use RLRLRL bass patterns, but (to the best of my knowledge) he did so only in solos and for accents. But I can't recall a Cream song that sounds anything like the beginning of Kamelot's "Forever"! It's that constant sixteenth-note bass ostinato that I'm talking about, where the pattern persists throughout a verse or chorus. Did Accept pioneer that?

 

[J-Man]

Way Way Back in the 60's a little know band from England called Pink Floyd had a drummer that really was the first to in rock music to use the double bass. Yes Ginger baker did also but Pink FLoyd origins go back before Cream. The drummer that pioneered the progressive style double bass was Bill Buford of Yes and Bev Bevan of ELO, and for heavy Metal it was Bill Ward of Sabbath. In the 70's the drummer that really brought the drummer to the forefront was Neil Pert of Rush. As far as Tommy Lee he is really a Johnny come lately in the musically timeline of using Double Bass. In my opinion today the master of the Double Bass is Jukka Nevalainen. Jukka uses a form of Double Bassing called heel and toe, in which there is two strikes per pedal per beat which gives the drummer more flexibility in creating the syncapaded beats you hear(List to She is my Sin, and Fantasimic). Also Alex Holzsworth is a master of this technique.

 

[Bryan316]

The first I can say in rock, would maybe be Peter Criss of KISS. Perhaps Pink Floyd. But they never created songs where a double-bass riff was the basis of a song's drumming. That'd maybe go to Detroit Rock City, with the horse gallop all through the song.

Heel-toe, or cyclic pedal drumming, is best exampled by Virgil Donati. Went to see Planet X, knowing I was in for some phenomenal, powerhouse musicianship. I saw that man play a 5+ minute song full speed nonstop double bass. I couldn't think afterwards. Blew my mind.


But for natural, full out double-bass drumming, DAVE FUCKING LOMBARDO. And this is with everyone considered. Mads Volf from Manticora, Lars Ulrich, Patrick Rafling, Mike Portnoy, even Dave Mackintosh from Dragonforce.... they all still stand in Lombardo's shadow of dominance. And as old as that fucker is now, he still destroys drum heads every show he does.

Question... could never tell, but was there double bass in Deep Purple's Highway Star?

 

[Joe-×]

The first I can say in rock, would maybe be Peter Criss of KISS.

Hmmm. I didn't think Criss ever played double bass?

Joe

 

[Bryan316]

Detroit Rock City is the first recorded example that I can think of that has a distinctive double-bass riff.

 

[King Lek]

Did a little looking around and found this.....

"Double bass drum techniques were pioneered by Louie Bellson in the 1950s and popularised in the 1960s by Ginger Baker of Cream and Keith Moon of the Who. In certain types of metal, the drummer plays a constant stream of rapid-fire notes on the bass drum, and the ability to play evenly at extremely high tempos is prized (as exemplified by Canadian band Eudoxis whose bass drums measured six feet in length)."

Does not really answer though who started playing them as commonly heard in power metal.

Do know though that i have not seen a 6' long bass drum, nor have i heard of this group.

Here is the only pic I can find.
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=16562

Here is another link, though no pic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxis

 

[woosta]

The first I can say in rock, would maybe be Peter Criss of KISS. Perhaps Pink Floyd. But they never created songs where a double-bass riff was the basis of a song's drumming. That'd maybe go to Detroit Rock City, with the horse gallop all through the song.

Heel-toe, or cyclic pedal drumming, is best exampled by Virgil Donati. Went to see Planet X, knowing I was in for some phenomenal, powerhouse musicianship. I saw that man play a 5+ minute song full speed nonstop double bass. I couldn't think afterwards. Blew my mind.


But for natural, full out double-bass drumming, DAVE FUCKING LOMBARDO. And this is with everyone considered. Mads Volf from Manticora, Lars Ulrich, Patrick Rafling, Mike Portnoy, even Dave Mackintosh from Dragonforce.... they all still stand in Lombardo's shadow of dominance. And as old as that fucker is now, he still destroys drum heads every show he does.

Question... could never tell, but was there double bass in Deep Purple's Highway Star?

Mikkey Dee owns EVERYONE on the drums in terms of incorporated double bass into a melodic song. He's a horse and I've never seen or heard anyone like him. And that is with everyone considered. Of course, that is my opinion on the matter!

 

[Bryan316]

Better than Richard Christy? Bobby Jarzombek? Phil Rudd?


And the only reason you'd need a 6' long bass drum, is cuz you're on tour in the 80's.

 

[edgeofthorns]

I've recently read in Modern Drummer Magazine where double bass drumming technique actually came from jazz believe it or not.

I'm aware that doesn't answer the question at hand, but maybe someone could research the article that I'm referring to to see if it addresses the rock drummer question.

I didn't buy the magazine or anything, but I remember reading that.

 

[King Lek]

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Louie_Bellson2.html

More on Louie Bellson
Interesting stuff.

 

[Ascension]

Hmmm. I didn't think Criss ever played double bass?

Joe

Criss never played a double kick...the individual who probably was the first to utilize double bass to it's utmost & who also was way ahead of his time...Neal Peart.

All drummers to Mr. Peart

 

[woosta]

Better than Richard Christy? Bobby Jarzombek? Phil Rudd?


And the only reason you'd need a 6' long bass drum, is cuz you're on tour in the 80's.

Phil Rudd? you are kidding, right?

So I can tell by the Christy and Jarzombek videos that you're one of those jazzy, syncopated style fans. That means nothing to me. Like I said in the post, and this WAS about double bass, Mikkey Dee does double bass in a melodic song better than anyone I've ever heard. Revisit "Abigail" or "Them" and tell me anyone close to that. Even the newer Motorhead stuff is just double bass fire.

If we were naming our best "percussionist" you may want to throw in your Christys or Jarzombeks but I'll take Virgil Donati any day of any year.

 

[Joe-×]

If we were naming our best "percussionist" you may want to throw in your Christys or Jarzombeks but I'll take Virgil Donati any day of any year.

The thread topic is FIRST person to play a steady stream of eighth- or sixteenth-notes on the bass drums throughout a verse or chorus on a rock song. Not best.

 

[Trans-Siberian Outcast]

I've always felt that the rapid fire bass drumming started becoming popular after Iron Maiden started speeding things up with Powerslave and Somewhere in Time (that's when I first noticed it). Of course, Helloween took it all a step further with the Keeper Albums. Personally I credit Helloween for starting the trend that still exists today in power/speed metal. Others (like Accept) had used the technique before them on certain songs, but Helloween made it their trademark sound.

 

[woosta]

The thread topic is FIRST person to play a steady stream of eighth- or sixteenth-notes on the bass drums throughout a verse or chorus on a rock song. Not best.

"It's difficult to nail it down in rock. Double bass drums started showing up at the same time, but so few of the dudes actually played them. They were mostly just for looks - like the hair metal guys in the 80's. They'd change pedals from time to time just to save on wear and tear, ha ha. I think Keith Moon was the first rock dude to play on a major stage with double bass drums, but I doubt he played them at all. He was too much of a hack. If you cornered me and made me give you an absolute answer, I'd go with Ginger Baker on Cream's Disraeli Gears. I think he was the first big name dude to play with the RLRLRL pattern in rock. The double bass in White Room, from Wheels of Fire, kicks butt. I'd put my money on Ginger; he hated Jack Bruce and his damned double bass so much that he had to have his own, ha ha. Prior to rock, you gotta go with Louie Bellson. He invented it.

Joe"

Then why are you yammering about guys playing styles in the 80s and Keith Moon being a hack? Stick to the point. Besides, my response was to Bryan316 and not to the first post.

First guy to play double bass in the chorus or verse of a song: Some dude nobody here ever heard of that gets no credit for it and nobody here has any knowledge of. Nobody could possibly have a definitive answer to this question even though it is an interesting one.