Overpopulation

[infoterror]

Ask an environmentalist in private what the world's biggest problems are and they will probably talk of climate change and human population growth, before moving on to disappearing species and habitats, deforestation, chemical pollution, resource wars, energy shortages and globalisation, to name just a few. Ask that same question in public and the odds are you will get one omission from that list - population growth.

Why aren't we talking about population? One reason is its almost unique capacity to offend just about every shade of opinion, from the neo-cons and evangelicals, who see it as an attack on liberty or a promotion of contraception/abortion, to the left, for whom multiculturalism has achieved iconic status - and who therefore view any questioning of immigration, currently responsible for some 84 per cent of projected UK population growth, as tantamount to racism.

What's even more disturbing, however, is the pattern of denial. By accident or design, we seem to have expressly evolved structures that prevent us confronting the fundamentals of planetary survival. We could deal with the population issue if we began talking about it. At the moment, we're looking the other way.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=648262

Hmm, hmm, a taboo.

 

[Bloody Pollyanna]

mm, taboo subjects! juicy..

funny how overpopulation is a problem that underpins all the other major problems facing the environment. but public discourse on most environmental problems is pretty limited, considering their importance. which is probably why- how can you complain about what peoples' way of life is doing to the world, when to fix it you'd have to make sacrifices? it's all very well to lament what we're doing to the world, but nobody's prepared to do much to stop it if it will affect them. and only way to actually combat the problems is to make drastic changes that WILL affect peoples' everyday life. anyway, a tangent there..

as an aside though..

and who therefore view any questioning of immigration, currently responsible for some 84 per cent of projected UK population growth, as tantamount to racism.

i don't know that multiculturalism or immigration, and the way the left or anyone else views them, are related to overpopulation. the problem of overpopulation is a global environmental issue, but it's not the same as "overpopulation" of certain groups in certain countries. if you're including this an example of the left being touchy about everything, to demonstrate that since they ARE so touchy, they'll obviously steer clear of talk of overpopulatoin, ok.. but i read it slightly differently.

 

[infoterror]

Big point is that overpopulation is the biggest issue facing us today.

Secondary point is that importing third-worlders destabilizes stable populations.

Europe is not the problem, UNTIL it begins importing the third world to produce more consumers.

That's insane, given the global situation.

 

[speed]

Nice thread. I agree with your criticisms. Instead of addressing the real issue of overpopulation, our politicians and those idiot Americans that follow politics, think much like you described--their policies and feelings on the matter are dictated by their parties ideology not by facts or rational decision making.

Clearly within the United States, we must stop poor Mexican's and Central Americans from crossing the border. ( and I have no problem with Hispanic people here) For every 1 white child being born, there is 6 or 8 ( i cant remember which) Hispanic children born. Moreover, Hispanics ( outside of those industrious Miami Cubans) have the lowest educational attainment patterns, even for third generation Hispanics. Recent Hispanic immigrants refuse to assimilate into American culture as well; they will continue pumping out children and keep their culture. And they are already more numerous than the African Americans. Eventually with 30-40% of the population being comprised of low skill, low wage holding, high number of kids hispanics, just how can our already crumbling social and economic infrastructure survive?

I know the French have similar problems with the ALgerians and West Africans; the whole of Europe has serious immigration problems too.

The worst is those fundamentalists and conservatives that deny funding to popultion control programs out of their misguided Christian views towards sex.

 

[The.Donut]

He speaks the truth. There's already an area in England that's had to stop using hosepipes because of water shortages, and this is only one of the many problems caused by overpopulation.

However, how do we tackle it? Do we enforce a one child only policy like China? Do we initiate Stalinist purges of the elderly and/or dying/weak/invalids? Do we send people to colonise Mars?

 

[speed]

Stop immigration, support birth control etc, and frankly with both America's and Europes current birth patterns, population should level lit or decline.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Do we send people to colonise Mars?

i actually like this idea.


my opinion is: yes i agree it is a major problem. one that is connected to the others, as more people means more resources used and more pollution. i do NOT think we should kill people off to stem population. i believe the issue lies in education. people need to LEARN and be responsible of their actions, and move away from (as was discussed in the sex thread) immoral action, irresponsible action, that leads to many births of unexpected natures. if a family wants many children, that is fine so long as they can provide for them and educate them, care for them, etc... if they are irresponsible and accidentally have many children because of lust, then they are a part of the problem and that must be prevented through learning and responsibility. i do NOT think that the problem is reserved for so called "3rd world" countries. if you compare the average family in a small chinese or african town, though they number greater than the average swedish, american, or british family, one must remember that chances for survival and longer lifespans prevail in the latter and thus the greater numbers are eclipsed by longevity. if out of 11 children, sadly only 2 live to 40, compare that with an american family with 3 children who all live to 90. just to illustrate the point that numbers and origin are not the deciding factor, but longevity.

i don't like the idea of trying to control people directly, but educating them so they make better decisions regarding family and children is wise. i honestly believe it is a growth however that cannot be stopped, only slowed. at some point, there will come a time when we must find another planet to thrive on as well as dealing with the resource destruction on Earth.

 

[NeverIsForever]

Plain and simple, there are way too many people on the planet. As a speices, we've been too successful for our own good. Not because birth rates are rising--I'm pretty sure they're not--but because technology is better and people are living much longer than they were, say, 50 years ago. Unless we're going to start denying medical care to the elderly so they don't live as long as they otherwise might, we as a species need to stop having kids for a while, or at least greatly reduce birth rates. Unfortunately that's not likely to happen, and it seems like the individuals least suited to successfully raising healthy, productive children are often the ones having the most children in the first place. I wonder, when are we as a society going to realize the time to think about this is NOW and not ten, or twenty, or fifty years down the road?

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Or we could kep things the way they are and wait to hit our carrying capacity, at which point nature will do a dandy job of picking us off.

 

[infoterror]

Or we could kep things the way they are and wait to hit our carrying capacity, at which point nature will do a dandy job of picking us off.

Not really - since we have world dominion, we'll consume much of it first, causing irreparable damage.

 

[Silver Incubus]

Not really - since we have world dominion, we'll consume much of it first, causing irreparable damage.

yeah and then we will all die, so i think they were right.

 

[AsModEe]

Don't think Mars will save us... it will take a good 10 000 years to make a decent terraforming. Until then we'll have 100 occasions to destroy mankind (and earth with it)

 

[Krilons Resa]

This thread hits at my core. But I digress, since I suck at [easily] putting my thoughts to words.


EDIT: But, if I may add anything at this moment, I do agree with most here. Although, I do, however, hold pretty extreme views.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Well the major problem here is two-fold. For one there is over-population and for two there is over-consumption. One is an issue of the third-world peoples- and through immigration an issue for the first world. The second is an issue for the entire world but ESPECIALLY the first world. As far as overpopulation goes I really do believe all governments need to start putting limitations on population growth. Perhaps some sort of tax raise for those with more then one child- or something of this nature. Unfortuantley many nations with dropping populations have done the exact opposite and encouraged more childbirth. Another key I believe is for more first world couples who want to have children to adopt from the third world. Theres enough people here already- lets not bring more when we don't need to- theres plenty of children that need a good mom or dad. I honestly do believe that leading people away from the monothiestic religions, or at least their obsession with reprodcution is imperative as well. As long as people think using condoms is a sin there's gonna be a problem.

As far as overconsumption, this is an even more imminent threat. What many people don't realize is both China and India are economically rising at a very rapid rate. If they end up reaching the levels of America and Europe- a presumabley consuming at the same rate, then we're in deep shit. Beyond that the majority of resources used in the world are in Europe and America. Using at the rate we use now, the world won't sustain for very long.

Solution to all these problems? Well the simple answer is for people to be more concious of the interconected dynamics of nature. The Earth is like the human body. If a kidney dies the other organs pick up the slack. But if a kidney dies, an arm is cut off, the liver starts to fail and the brian becomes damaged... then there's gonna be some problems. As long as we see ourselves in a purly induviudalistic light- and see ourselves as having no responsibilities to the rest of the environment then things will continue to get worse.

 

[no country for old wainds]

^ That pretty much sums up my thoughts.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Another key I believe is for more first world couples who want to have children to adopt from the third world. Theres enough people here already- lets not bring more when we don't need to- theres plenty of children that need a good mom or dad.

I honestly do believe that leading people away from the monothiestic religions, or at least their obsession with reprodcution is imperative as well.

the first part i absolutely agree with.

the second i don't follow. at least christianity, there is no place in which it says "go forth and have lots of sex!". that is a natural and implied factor in continuing the species, but it is not something encouraged to be taken to extremes. so i don't see the connection between that and religion...

 

[crimsonfloyd]

the second i don't follow. at least christianity, there is no place in which it says "go forth and have lots of sex!". that is a natural and implied factor in continuing the species, but it is not something encouraged to be taken to extremes. so i don't see the connection between that and religion...

Go see how many children the average athiest who has sex before marriage has. Then go see how many children the average Christian who waits til marriage has. There's your answer.

 

[kmik]

They breed like rabbits in the third world because of economical reasons. If you are poor (very poor) you need kids to work for you when they grow older, that's all - its not an issue of mentality.

The equation richer = less kids does apply in Europe and in the US though, because people who have a lot of money want to rise their children properly, and it is well known that the more you have the less they get.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

^another great point

 

[the alumnus]

there is a direct correlation between birth rates and education. you find that the higher levels of education in a country (especially education of women), the lower the birth rates. in fact, its interesting to note that there isn't a correlation between weath and birth rates. many wealthy women in india, arabia, etc. will have 6 or more children, and this is because they are uneducated. the majority of saudi women are illiterate. therefore they are ignorant of birth control, their right to not have children, and even their own bodies. in some cultures women look at birth control like some sort of voodoo, they simply don't believe that you can take a magic pill every day and you won't get pregnant.