Pantera's Heaviest Album?

[SouthernTrendkill]

So it comes down to this: skill can be (and is) measured (and measurable). You choose not to acknowledge this because you're not in the land of reality and convention and practicality but of airy-fairy philisophical nothingness where there's no such thing as a skilled guitarist or carpenter or farmer or house builder. You're eschewing commonly used and useful definitions in favour of "no one's better at anything than anyone else" bullshit.

Skill, for all intents and purposes, can be measured objectively.

On the "pure conjecture / perhaps he is, perhaps he is not" garbage, if we can not come to a conclusion based on analysis of the entirety of the vast quantities of recorded evidence available then how can anyone ever know anything about anything?

You are hilarious.

How do you account for the fact that one person will say guitarist 1 is more skilled than guitarist 2, and another will say the opposite? I'm getting rid of nothing, you are just solidfying your own perspective on it, putting it above that of other people.

Recorded evidence? Go back to my previous points that you never refuted. There's an abundance of logical reasoning for why our opinions of who is skilled are shaky at best.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

The bottom line being that if skill in relation to a craft cannot be considered objective, then what can? We then enter the realm of hypotheticals where nothing is real and anything can mean anything, which is no place for a discussion about something real like music. You are using logic that can be applied to make anything subjective - "good", "happy", "ball", "hot dog" - take it to the philosopher forum and leave the world to say things like "Roland Dyens was a skilled guitarist" and have reasonable people know exactly what is meant.

How do you account for the fact that one person will say guitarist 1 is more skilled than guitarist 2, and another will say the opposite?

They have different conceptions of skill; discussion will allow them to come to a conclusion.

I'm getting rid of nothing...

How about the usefulness of the concept of "skill"?

Recorded evidence? Go back to my previous points that you never refuted. There's an abundance of logical reasoning for why our opinions of who is skilled are shaky at best.

If we analyze the recorded evidence (the music Cobain recorded) do we have any reason to conclude that he possessed the level of classical guitar mastery obtained by Dyens? The balance of probabilities says no. If this conclusion is "pure conjecture" then so is every criminal conviction in legal history.

Can a carpenter be skilled?

 

[SouthernTrendkill]

The bottom line being that if skill in relation to a craft cannot be considered objective, then what can? We then enter the realm of hypotheticals where nothing is real and anything can mean anything, which is no place for a discussion about something real like music. You are using logic that can be applied to make anything subjective - "good", "happy", "ball", "hot dog" - take it to the philosopher forum and leave the world to say things like "Roland Dyens was a skilled guitarist" and have reasonable people know exactly what is meant.


They have different conceptions of skill; discussion will allow them to come to a conclusion.


How about the usefulness of the concept of "skill"?


If we analyze the recorded evidence (the music Cobain recorded) do we have any reason to conclude that he possessed the level of classical guitar mastery obtained by Dyens? The balance of probabilities says no. If this conclusion is "pure conjecture" then so is every criminal conviction in legal history.

Can a carpenter be skilled?

You fail to see my point.

Carpentry does not equal music, this is obvious. Music is not a craft in the same way that carpentry is.

We can still talk about skill all we want, but your assessment of Dime's ability is balls and I showed everybody how that is so. I am not now, nor have I ever argued that Cobain has the classical guitar mastery of Dyens. I want you to show me the world conference that decided classical mastery to be the end-all meausre of skill. We've been over this already, reread my posts. Classical mastery is straight-forward, children and Esteban can do it.

 

[skeptik]

What makes you think that there is anything that is objective? You're assuming that there are objective things in the world, and concluding from that that musical skill must have the attribute of ability to be measured objectively. This is like saying that God must exist because then nothing is truly good or evil. The only way in which you can have an objective measure of skill is if you have a universally agreed upon paradigm of what constitutes skill and explicit, deliberate means to interpret skill based on the pre-established criterion. And, of course, this does not exist. So any claims of 'skill' are not objective, but rather subjective.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Carpentry does not equal music, this is obvious. Music is not a craft in the same way that carpentry is.

Why not?

We can still talk about skill all we want, but your assessment of Dime's ability is balls and I showed everybody how that is so. I am not now, nor have I ever argued that Cobain has the classical guitar mastery of Dyens. I want you to show me the world conference that decided classical mastery to be the end-all meausre of skill. We've been over this already, reread my posts. Classical mastery is straight-forward, children and Esteban can do it.

Technical skill can be assessed, because "technical skill" is a concept that has a generally accepted meaning. You can argue that "technical skill" can also mean sloppy power chord riffing, just as I can argue that "hot dog" can mean "boat".

What makes you think that there is anything that is objective?

If we are looking for objective in the sense of Moses on Mount Sinai/Horeb then nothing is truly objective, but we assume that things are for the purpose of communication and functioning as a society.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

suggestion - why dont u try asking some of these guitar players what their own personal take on "skill" is.....steve smyth and chris broderick are both two excellent guitar players who have their own forums and gladly answer fan inquiries. not that their take on it would make it official but it would offer perhaps a starting point or a "real" take on it, since so many of you seem to doubt each others' own knowledge of theory, playing, etc...

 

[Imolarot]

oh you guys make me laugh with all the negative comments you throw around towards bands and or musucians you do not like. I am assuming some of you are older and should be a bit more mature by glancing at some of the cd collections you have. Some constructive criticism or an ocassional light joke is one thing but you are so narrow minded and just look like assholes that it makes me sad to be asscociated with the metal community at times.

 

[Vitor]

who dislilkes pantera doesn't know what metal is.

pantera was really fucking great... just the tr00 ones can't see it.

do you wanna know what is the essence of the heavy metal? gonna watch the home vídeo 3 watch it go.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Yeah I don't really understand the amount of hate they get directed at them either.

 

[Lyle]

it was definitely morbid visions.

rip warell dane, dimebag, chuck, and eric from that eric may you rape the angels song.

 

[DarkBliss]

Welcome back, you quirky troll
Aren't you like the natural extension of SpectacularViewsness?

 

[Belligerent]

who dislilkes pantera doesn't know what metal is.

pantera was really fucking great... just the tr00 ones can't see it.

do you wanna know what is the essence of the heavy metal? gonna watch the home vídeo 3 watch it go.

.
Spoken for the truth. My man grinder. Pantera 3 Watch it go is the ULTIMATE metal dvd. Destroying hotel rooms, smoking bongs, drinking heavily (puking heavily), popping pimples off of some dudes ass the size of a golf ball...
you can't watch that video and NOT want to party afterwards.

 

[Alteredmindeath]

George Lynch > Dimebag

Even George Lynch praised Dimbags skillz, you can't fuck with Dimes leads, no one can... not even George.

 

[Wires & Waves]

Welcome back, you quirky troll
Aren't you like the natural extension of SpectacularViewsness?

i asked him to start posting here again

 

[Cythraul]

How do you account for the fact that one person will say guitarist 1 is more skilled than guitarist 2, and another will say the opposite? I'm getting rid of nothing, you are just solidfying your own perspective on it, putting it above that of other people.

That's a terrible argument. Let me ask you this: How do you account for the fact that one person will say that human beings evolved from primates, and another guy will say they were created by God instead? My god, it must be because there's no fact of the matter concerning the origins of human beings!

Another thing, skill is measurable. You're just confused because you're conflating thick value concepts and thin value concepts. Is Experienced Carpenter Craig better at building shit than Dumbshit Dan? Of course he is! It's one thing to ask the previous question and it's a quite different matter to ask a question whether something is valuable or good as in ought to be valued or ought to exist, etc.

 

[Cythraul]

who dislilkes pantera doesn't know what metal is.

pantera was really fucking great... just the tr00 ones can't see it.

do you wanna know what is the essence of the heavy metal? gonna watch the home vídeo 3 watch it go.

If Pantera is the essence of metal, then I don't like metal.

On another note, you fucking suck.

 

[ShredHeadJHJ]

"The Great Southern TRendkill" was Pantera's heaviest album.

I can't be bothered to read through this whole thread right now - but it seems something along the lines that someone thinks Dimebag was the end-all/be-all technical guitar wizard/master. Right...?

I've been playing 13 years & I know quite a bit about the craft of playing guitar. Many people believe classical to be the most difficult music to play on guitar, however just because someone is the master of classical guitar does not mean they will ever be able to Shred like Rusty Cooley & VICE VERSA. Not everyone is going to be able to master every style. Take greats like Allan Holdsworth & Frank Gambale. Both MASTER's of their craft & both play music much more difficult to play than anything Dimebag ever did yet I do not think that both buys would be able to play the other's music Neither one of these guys play classical by the way.

There are thousands & thousands of people out there who had more technical capabilities than Dimebag did.

 

[ShredHeadJHJ]

Even George Lynch praised Dimbags skillz, you can't fuck with Dimes leads, no one can... not even George.

uke:

 

[YouthanAsia]

The Great Southern Trendkill

 

[AchrisK]

Couldn't skill be evaluated if there was a standard set? Say, take 5 pieces that each player didn't already know and have them learn them and evaluate how close each player gets to actually playing the pieces correctly. It's sorta like in classical, how you have some people who can play the pieces and they are in the orchestra, and then you have people who tried out, but can't play the stuff accurately or correctly and based on their skill level, do not get to be in the orchestra.

It seems pretty simple.