Parallel Compression on guitars?

[C_F_H_13]

I got to assist on a session today where the engineer ran a parallel compression chain on his heavy guitar tones.

Basically he ran his mics (421 and 57 straight on 2 different speakers of 4X12 mesa cab) to the console and then multed them off to a comp. He used an 1176 and had the input gain pretty heavy, with 5-6 db of compression. He brought it back to the console, then blended that with the uneffected mics and sent that to protools......sound was HUGE.

Anyone ever tried this?

 

[006]

Hmm...sounds cool. I might try that on my current project instead of just simply turning the guitars up.

~006

 

[spioraid]

sounds pretty tight I'd imagine. I'll give it a go next chance I get.

 

[beyond dead]

how does it hold up in the mix?

 

[C_F_H_13]

how does it hold up in the mix?

See that's the part that amazed me....you'd think with that compression on at least a part of the signal that you'd get huge variations in the low end and pumping....but actually they fit perfectly. The guy spent alot of time with the amp figuring out how to make it poke through first...then he ran the usual setup...sounded great....then he added this compressor and BANG! amazing tone. The was so much harmonics on the guitar that it sounded like it was going to make the speakers explode.

 

[beyond dead]

cool!!! did you catch how much of the compressed signal was added to the dry signal?
i imagine i could get similar results if i recorded dry tracks, then reamped and compressed with a rnc, then blended the signals in logic. parallel compression aswell? multi band?

edit... samples???

 

[TheIllicitOne]

I would be interested in hearing some samples, first without the compression then with. If its at all possible for you to post some clips I would much appreciate it.

 

[C_F_H_13]

I would be interested in hearing some samples, first without the compression then with. If its at all possible for you to post some clips I would much appreciate it.

While I can't post his clips (it's for a major label record), sometime soon, I'll give it a whirl and post something....

 

[C_F_H_13]

cool!!! did you catch how much of the compressed signal was added to the dry signal?
i imagine i could get similar results if i recorded dry tracks, then reamped and compressed with a rnc, then blended the signals in logic. parallel compression aswell? multi band?

edit... samples???

Well what I can tell you is the small faders on the SSL were set to:

sm57- 0
421- -5
compress channel- -15

Both mics had about 25 db of gain on them.

One thing I forgot to mention...on some songs he actually EQ'd the compressed signal too. Added like 3db at 1k, 200hz, and 10k......on it's own it sounded like total garbage...but mixed in...it added sooo much to the guitars.

 

[006]

I would imagine that the effect is just like when you use parallel comp on drums - it just fattens it up a LOT. I will be trying this out tonight and I can post a before and after clip of the current project I'm wrapping up right now. I'm actually kind of excited to see how it affects everything because as I said I was thinking of just turning the guitars up a little but really what I'm looking for is a little more space to be filled, i.e. fatter guitars. This sounds like it will do the trick, we'll see tonight

~006

 

[abyssofdreams]

I don't get it, SSL or 1176?
Could somebody post a pic of what that would look alike? Pictures are always better

 

[Zuranthus]

if it can be used for vocals why not guitars or anything else??

 

[006]

1176 = compressor, by SSL he is talking about the console that the guy is using. So the signal is going out of the SSL and into an 1176 compressor and back into the SSL, at which point he is blending the compressed signal in with the uncompressed original signal.

CFH13 - Could you please describe any more details, if there are any, about the compressed tracks? Also, is he high/low passing them like normal or more or at all? Thanks.

~006

 

[C_F_H_13]

1176 = compressor, by SSL he is talking about the console that the guy is using. So the signal is going out of the SSL and into an 1176 compressor and back into the SSL, at which point he is blending the compressed signal in with the uncompressed original signal.

CFH13 - Could you please describe any more details, if there are any, about the compressed tracks? Also, is he high/low passing them like normal or more or at all? Thanks.

~006

OK so here's a more detailed explanation...just got to the studio and I am examining my recall notes....

JCM 800/5150 combination (settings are nothing out of the ordinary..and honestly irrelavent to this discussion)

Mesa Oversized straight cab (v30s)

SM57 on top right speaker dead on about a quarter inch from cloth.
421 on bottom left speaker slightly down and right of center same distance from cloth.

Both mics fed API 512c preamps, and then were brought up on channels 20 and 21 on the SSL. They were bussed to 1 and 3. 1 is the input to protools and 3 fed the 1176

1176 settings : 33 input 14 output attack to slowest and release to fastest. There was anywhere from 3-6 DB of compression.

The 1176 was brought back on channel 22 and then bussed to 1.

There was no EQ at all on the guitar mics, and no hi/low passing on the compression channel.

Eq was on compression channel:

+2 at 10k Shelf
+4 at 1.5K
-2 at 600hz
+2 at 200-250hz shelf

*EDIT*

I almost missed this...the output to protools hit a GML EQ before being recorded.

EQ was:

+1 at 10k shelf
+2 at 4.5k
+1 at 700hz
+1 at 220hz
+1 at 60hz shelf...

 

[006]

EDIT: Nvm, re-read your post.

So this guy isn't high/low passing the guitars? Any problems with mud or woofing? I can't imagine not having at least a high-pass (at 60-80Hz) to get rid of unnecessary rumble on the guitars.

~006

 

[abyssofdreams]

I guess if the guitars have been recorded "correctly" they wouldn't need any filtering?

So this technique here... would it be the same to duplicate the guitar tracks and put an 1176 insert in that track in my DAW?
Besides the console, in theory it's the same?
Why the routing? Couldn't he just set the output of the compressed to a seperate track?

Also, do you know how he panned the tracks uncompressed/compressed in the stereo field and what at what gain staging?

Thanks and sorry for my noob questions^^

 

[C_F_H_13]

I guess if the guitars have been recorded "correctly" they wouldn't need any filtering?

So this technique here... would it be the same to duplicate the guitar tracks and put an 1176 insert in that track in my DAW?
Besides the console, in theory it's the same?
Why the routing? Couldn't he just set the output of the compressed to a seperate track?

Also, do you know how he panned the tracks uncompressed/compressed in the stereo field and what at what gain staging?

Thanks and sorry for my noob questions^^

1. The amps were actually set somewhat thin...he gained the low end from the compressed signal. So no filtering was needed

2. In theory that might work, but I doubt it'll react quite the same. The main point of this setup was that the SUMMED combination of compressed and uncompressed sounds were recorded as one MONO guitar track in PT....he commited to the sound.

3. Again this was done on a per take basis....so it was just a single recorded track. He then doubled or quaded the part.

 

[006]

1. The amps were actually set somewhat thin...he gained the low end from the compressed signal. So no filtering was needed

That's really cool. I take it he's been an engineer for a while then, that's some experience shining through.

2. In theory that might work, but I doubt it'll react quite the same. The main point of this setup was that the SUMMED combination of compressed and uncompressed sounds were recorded as one MONO guitar track in PT....he commited to the sound.

I agree. The effect isn't the same as sending it out. What host are you using Abyss? All hosts are fairly easy to setup routing like this, Cubase in particular is super simple.

~006

 

[C_F_H_13]

That's really cool. I take it he's been an engineer for a while then, that's some experience shining through.

~006

Yeah he's a fairly well known engineer (at least to me). He actually was super cool about sharing with me and me sharing on this forum, providing I don't use his name or the bands name...he had this to add.

"5150 is the major part of the tone, the jcm 800 is just adding some nastiness in the high mids and some "color" in the bottom. I use the compression chain for 2 things: 1 to add a tone of harmonic content that you simply can't get from just the mics, and to add in a controllable low end. It allows me to get a very cutting guitar tone that's full, without having to worry about low notes jumping out all over the place. If you are going to try this it is VERY IMPORTANT that the compressed signal isn't too loud.....it'll sound better and better the more you add on it's own...louder/fatter/brighter all at the same time...but it will get lost in the track and you will end up in mudtown usa. If you aren't sure, keep it on the low side. Also try different compressors. I used an 1176 this time, but I use LA2As,LA3as,Neve compressors, an SSL compressor...a variety. the important thing is you need a hardware compressor...this will NOT work the same way in the Box. A big part of the sound is driving the circuits of these comps, and the way the console "ssl in this case" bussing matrix works. hope this helps....now get back to work"

 

[006]

Hmm....even more reason for me to invest in a hardware comp. I'll see how it comes out in the box, but I can definitely understand why he's saying it needs to be outboard. Hopefully it'll work somewhat in a similar fashion.

The idea of dialing the amps a little thin and using the compressed tracks to add the lowend is genius, kinda removes the need for a multiband comp to reduce woofing.

~006