Phase Inversion of Rec. Preamp Noise against Guitar track - options?

[cboysen]

Hi - I'm in the awkward situation of realizing (after long time and annoyance) that my beloved Peavey 6505+ 112 uses a buffer in the FX loop which compromises my tone (Compressed dynamics, raised highs, lowered mids and low-mids), much like the Valveking.


Now this leaves me with three scenarios/options, each with their problems and possible solutions.

1) Use the amp with noise gate (decimator g-string) in FX loop = get compromised tone

2) Don't use noise gate in FX Loop = get preamp noise on recordings

3) Try to sell 6505+ 112 = Buy new/different amp


I use a direct signal from the Koch Loadbox 2 connected to the amp, so solutions could be

1a) Use various computer-techniques to tweak the signal to something useful
1b) Figure out schematics, implement work-around for a more neutral loop

2a) Record clean track with preamp noise only, phase invert it against guitar-recording
2b) Use various noise-reduction software

3a) Wait for Bugera 6262 Infinium to get out, retube = 449 euro
3b) Buy Peavey 6505+ = 1390 euro
3c) Buy used Peavey 6505+ = 1070 euro
3d) Buy alternative amp?


As the title gives away, I'm mostly thrilled about the b1) Phase Inversion technique, but can't test it until tomorrow.
My guess is, it wont work very well - Different sounds occupy same frequencies, thus the phase inversion will cancel out more than just the noise?

1b) Is doable, but quite expensive too

3b) and 3c) is ofc any purist's real answer, but seriously, 1000 euro is a lot of cash, if a simple phase inversion + maybe a few different techniques will solve it..
Also, 3bc) Might overpower the Loadbox since it's only 120watt RMS as well.

If the only option is to spent money on a new amp - Should I consider looking elsewhere? - I do very much like the 6505 tone, but is it worth it for direct recording + impulses. I'm not gonna use it for live performance anytime soon.

Kind Regards - Christian

 

[Nimvi]

I think you are overthinking this waaaay too much man! Many people record without noisegates (as do I) and it isn't really a problem. Just cut out the silences by hand during the editing phase. During the playing it shouldn't be noticable anyway. It's part of what the amp sounds like imo. Save yourself the money and stress and just try to nail a good tone for the recording

EDIT: I'm assuming that you are talking about normal amp-noise levels. If the noise is overbearing, I think you have different problems than the amp (unclean powercircuit for example), and should look into that first.

 

[cboysen]

I think you are overthinking this waaaay too much man! Many people record without noisegates (as do I) and it isn't really a problem. Just cut out the silences by hand during the editing phase. During the playing it shouldn't be noticable anyway. It's part of what the amp sounds like imo. Save yourself the money and stress and just try to nail a good tone for the recording

EDIT: I'm assuming that you are talking about normal amp-noise levels. If the noise is overbearing, I think you have different problems than the amp (unclean powercircuit for example), and should look into that first.

Hmm -- really, I thought such noise could totally diminish a recording? - Guess not..

GAS'ing for a new 6505+ is not the way to go, for a little noise reduction and 5% fuller tone you think?

Anyway, cut out by hand? - I will be using a Noise gate up front though - I like that a lot for recording.. Either way.. I suppose you're right!

Either way -
dv247 got this offer atm

http://www.dv247.com/clearance/peavey-6505-plus-head-all-tube-guitar-amp-head-as-new--77792

I could sell my 6505+ 112 for a bit to reduce the 'waste' - if so, would it be something worth considering, now that I'm only recording / using impulses and all?

 

[sprack]

2a doesnt work BTW. It's pink noise and its non-deterministic. Run a spectrum analyzer on it and you'll see it has a pretty broad frequency mark.

 

[Nimvi]

Hmm -- really, I thought such noise could totally diminish a recording? - Guess not..

GAS'ing for a new 6505+ is not the way to go, for a little noise reduction and 5% fuller tone you think? [/url]

I could sell my 6505+ 112 for a bit to reduce the 'waste' - if so, would it be something worth considering, now that I'm only recording / using impulses and all?

Yea I totally agree that it's good to be on the lookout for as perfect as possible recordings before starting to fix it in the mix. Saves you a lot of headache later on!
But in normal situations (meaning decent powering, no groundloops, and pre-amp gain on a sensible level, which you should do for a recording anyway) I've never really had problems with the noise. Sure there is that hiss, but as soon as the guitar is played, it becomes as good as inaudible in comparisson, so the only time when it could be heard is during playing breaks. I always just cut those silent gaps inbetween hits out by hand during editing, which is essentially the same thing the noisegate does in the loop anyway (right? correct me if I'm wrong). So imo it's less of a compromise than using the noisegate in a loop that robs your tone. I see no harm in using the gate in front of the amp for some extra cleaning though, and I think lots of people on this forum do that with great results.

About that GAS-thing...I would tell you to be careful with that, but that would be like a junky telling another junky that he does too much heroin. So yea, you totally should get another amp! Maybe even two. And while you are at it, get a new guitar, because your old one just won't do!
Seriously though, beware the dreaded GASdemon.

 

[cboysen]

Yea I totally agree that it's good to be on the lookout for as perfect as possible recordings before starting to fix it in the mix. Saves you a lot of headache later on!
But in normal situations (meaning decent powering, no groundloops, and pre-amp gain on a sensible level, which you should do for a recording anyway) I've never really had problems with the noise. Sure there is that hiss, but as soon as the guitar is played, it becomes as good as inaudible in comparisson, so the only time when it could be heard is during playing breaks. I always just cut those silent gaps inbetween hits out by hand during editing, which is essentially the same thing the noisegate does in the loop anyway (right? correct me if I'm wrong). So imo it's less of a compromise than using the noisegate in a loop that robs your tone. I see no harm in using the gate in front of the amp for some extra cleaning though, and I think lots of people on this forum do that with great results.

About that GAS-thing...I would tell you to be careful with that, but that would be like a junky telling another junky that he does too much heroin. So yea, you totally should get another amp! Maybe even two. And while you are at it, get a new guitar, because your old one just won't do!
Seriously though, beware the dreaded GASdemon.

Totally what I wanted to hear! - Im off to the music shop..

No really, if the preamp noise is next to non-existance under normal circumstances while playing, it's all fine to me. I could rewire to loop directly to the send, bypassing the master reverb, which I dont use anyway, but still a bit of hassle, but totally reversible ..

The only thing I'm really looking for atm, gear-wise that is, is some Bare Knuckle Pickups for some increased dynamics, and a bit of 'soul', instead of my emg 81/85 standard setup (which is awesome, but I wanna try something different).

Cutting out by hand should be just fine, and otherwise, a lot of software can do it, or I can programme it myself I guess - vst plugin that silences track x ms after drop in dB (noise floor level).. I dunno..

If I get the opportunity, I'll test it out tonight - I'm just uncertain if I can use my decimator as up-front gate only..

Kind regards
Christian