PPUSA Alumni start Kickstarter Campaign

[booB]

With Kickstarter, what it is really up to is do you trust whom you are giving your money to to deliver on what they promise? For this, I'd trust a band that has delivered 4 albums to be able to deliver a 5th.

This. The only Kickstarters I have ever supported were established companies and media creators (such as Rob Thomas/the Veronica Mars movie) who were more likely to be in a position to follow through with their promised rewards. I would never give my money to some schlub off the street who had never run a business or made whatever thing he/she is attempting to make. If I was still consuming new music, I would more likely donate to Voyager's Kickstarter campaign than some random five guys in their parents' basement.

And yeah, investing in a Kickstarter is always a risk. There are many things that can go wrong that can change what someone delivers. That being said, I have yet to be a part of a Kickstarter that has failed, tho I do realize that there is always the potential to lose what I put in. It is always up to whomever is doing the investing to decide if it is worth the risk.

Actually, if a Kickstarter fails, none of the money gets collected. It's often worse to have the campaign succeed, because then often many of the payments don't go through and the amount dwindles, and then, even if the amount is "enough" to fund the project, things could still go south.

You're in the minority though. You know you're donating to the band, not necessarily EXPECTING something in return although you know maybe pitching in will help keep the band afloat and hopefully you'll get your reward as well - but most people are selfish, entitled, and fickle and all it takes is one band to go overbudget, or do something to transgress against what they promised because they have to to piss everyone off.

It doesn't take Kickstarter or another crowdfunding vehicle to make this happen. All it takes is a ballsy con-artist. Anyone remember Etheria? They were taking "pre-orders" at ProgPower USA 1.0 for a debut album that didn't exist, and then the band broke up soon after. I think some people saw refunds, but not many.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I'm not talking about shitty no name bands conning people. That's going to happen on Kickstarter, Ebay, Facebook, email, and real life. I'm talking about pro-tier bands thinking they can try to raise 50 k to do a tour and album, finding out they went past budget, pushing everything back and asking fans for more, or simply being unable to deliver. You guys keep rebutting me with "cons" or "fraud" "the system" but I'm talking about actual good intentions from legitimate bands ultimately over exerting the expectations of fans.

Imagine what would happen for example if a band like Wintersun resorted to Kickstarter? They got enough shit for their delays and THEY did everything through the label. If they operated through the fans' money - there would be pitchforks.

 

[TheLongshot]

Actually, if a Kickstarter fails, none of the money gets collected. It's often worse to have the campaign succeed, because then often many of the payments don't go through and the amount dwindles, and then, even if the amount is "enough" to fund the project, things could still go south.

I was more speaking about the failure to deliver after the money is collected.

I'm not talking about shitty no name bands conning people. That's going to happen on Kickstarter, Ebay, Facebook, email, and real life. I'm talking about pro-tier bands thinking they can try to raise 50 k to do a tour and album, finding out they went past budget, pushing everything back and asking fans for more, or simply being unable to deliver. You guys keep rebutting me with "cons" or "fraud" "the system" but I'm talking about actual good intentions from legitimate bands ultimately over exerting the expectations of fans.

Imagine what would happen for example if a band like Wintersun resorted to Kickstarter? They got enough shit for their delays and THEY did everything through the label. If they operated through the fans' money - there would be pitchforks.

Given I've had more than a few Kickstarters that have had those kinda delays and funding issues, usually if they are upfront with the issues the crowd is usually understanding. Delays happen, particularly if the scope of the project increases with the increase in funding.

I think bands are less prone to this because there is little scope creep. Experienced bands generally know how much it will cost and what timeframe it will take to write and record an album.

BTW, I find it a little interesting that this argument has come up now, instead of when Sound Of Thunder had their Kickstarter. I guess this is more acceptable from forum members than otherwise. (Not to knock Nina's campaign.)

 

[General Zod]

BTW, I find it a little interesting that this argument has come up now, instead of when Sound Of Thunder had their Kickstarter. I guess this is more acceptable from forum members than otherwise.

I don't get that sense. There have a few Kickstarter threads as of late, which seems to be what prompted Mardoch to ask the question which spawned this discussion.

 

[TENTH DREAMER DECEIVER]

I don't get that sense. There have a few Kickstarter threads as of late, which seems to be what prompted Mardoch to ask the question which spawned this discussion.

ASOT have a pretty singer. Voyager does not.

 

[Mardoch]

I don't get that sense. There have a few Kickstarter threads as of late, which seems to be what prompted Mardoch to ask the question which spawned this discussion.

Correct. Since this is the third in about a month and a half (and the fourth that I've backed this year) I was asking the question smartassedly.

ASOT have a pretty singer. Voyager does not.

No offense to Danny, but I agree with this statement. However it's not related to how this discussion started.

 

[mattbrood]

ASOT have a pretty singer. Voyager does not.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

ASOT have a pretty singer. Voyager does not.

>_>

Thank you?

Okay, seems to be a lot of misinformation where KickStarter is concerned.. but I'll at least say that for the most part, even "top tier" bands have to raise a lot of the funds needed to create albums on their own. That's why we've got stuff like this from Voyager; they're not making any money. They all have jobs. They make music because they want to, not because they're making a profit.

So they're getting my money, because I appreciate good music and I really appreciate the honesty. We did in fact use KickStarter as more of a pre-ordering platform, because it made it very easy for us to create products that we would have otherwise have had to raise money to make beforehand. So, we get to make cool shit, and people who actually want it get to buy it. Magically, enough people wanted that shit.

Here's hoping Voyager makes enough that they can also have huge success and come back to the US and get wasted with us, again!

 

[TENTH DREAMER DECEIVER]

Forgot the

Anyway, I've contributed once to Kickstarter and it worked out so far.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

Anyway, I've contributed once to Kickstarter and it worked out so far.

I've honestly never had an issue with KickStarters. I didn't know people were scammed with it, but most of the campaigns I've helped are for people I know so I could just go beat the shit out of them if they didn't pay up.

Same goes for us.

You all know who we are. D:

 

[mattbrood]

I've contributed to ASOT, Mindmaze, Huntress, and now Voyager and I'm more than happy to support great bands making great music!

 

[GammaJosh]

the band has no actual responsibility to service you with rewards

That actually sucks for us, the people on the consumer end, because it means we're taking a risk if we donate with the mentality that we're getting a reward for our donation. A lot of people have been feeling burned by KS recently because of that mentality as a matter of fact - since not every kickstarter campaign can accommodate what it promises.

Posting from the perspective of a band member that has used Kickstarter, there is some legal language and from what I can tell the bands do have some legally binding responsibility when they do a Kickstarter. Whether anyone would actually take the time to start legal action because they didn't get their $15 CD is another matter.

If you're worried or think "this sucks", my personal recommendation is to only support bands that have a track record of following through. There is no way A Sound of Thunder is not going to come through on its Kickstarter commitments...you can take that to the bank.

If you're sick of crowd-funding campaigns, you're probably in for a long frustrating ride, because the music industry and the financial realities for bands aren't going to get any better. If you want bands that you like to continue to make music, you're going to have to offer them your support up front. This will only become more true as older bands that established a name under the old record company system dwindle, and you are left with newer bands that came up during this hyper-competitive age of unlimited choice and unlimited tiny niche genres.

 

[Mardoch]

We did in fact use KickStarter as more of a pre-ordering platform, because it made it very easy for us to create products that we would have otherwise have had to raise money to make beforehand. So, we get to make cool shit, and people who actually want it get to buy it. Magically, enough people wanted that shit.

I'm totally cool with this approach. And I wish Skyharbor would take it too. They don't want to do a KS or comparable campaign because they don't want handouts. Admirable. Instead they're asking people to buy their merch as a pre funding mechanism. However their merch, at last check, contained no album preorder option or clothing in fatty sizes. So instead of me giving them cash, which I would oh so happily do...they got nothing.

In your specific case you had lots of cool shit as perks, which was perfect to go along with your album, imo. Voyager's approach is similar, and because I liked the samples and the honesty and humor in the video so much I threw down for the shirt too. Also I like them, obviously.

 

[Rick Pierpont]

Wow! Such a negative attitude by some people here about KS. I have noticed that many bands are doing this now as well. The reason? It is an awesome way to raise the funds necessary to release albums.

My band, Odin's Court, just finished a successful campaign as well. We all work day jobs and make NO money playing in the band. I/we do this because we love to make music! Simple! It really is much more of a REALLY expensive "hobby". Just adding up the cost of gas driving back and forth for practices, recording, and shows would make most people here run scared. Add in the cost of food, equipment, and equipment maintenance and it really gets crazy (I spent over $600 in OCTOBER alone driving back and forth and food). However, it is getting increasingly difficult for bands to continue self-funding everything. I honestly hope that other bands/organizations do not ruin KS with practices that raise questions of its validity.

However, this negative attitude towards KS campaigns does not help one bit. It feeds into the fears of people already nervous about the process. I know that there is NO WAY that Odin's Court will not follow through with our rewards and promises.

 

[GammaJosh]

The "handout" mentality blows my mind. We only asked $15 for our CD on Kickstarter. How is that a handout? The only differences are that you're pre-ordering it a little in advance, most of the money goes to the band instead of a label, and the album only gets made if enough people participate.

Things only get into "handout" territory when bands start charging too much for items.

 

[OrionSon]

Personally, I have no problem with Kickstarter being used more. If it means more awesome bands can keep making music, touring, etc., then it's a good thing to me. Even if people complain about delays and failed rewards and such, it's better than the alternative of the band releasing no music.

 

[usaprogmusic]

It doesn't take Kickstarter or another crowdfunding vehicle to make this happen. All it takes is a ballsy con-artist. Anyone remember Etheria? They were taking "pre-orders" at ProgPower USA 1.0 for a debut album that didn't exist, and then the band broke up soon after. I think some people saw refunds, but not many.

I think you take a risk in a lot of things you put money up front. It's not even Kickstarter or for bands. It could even be a music-related cruise that never happened and a lot of people didn't see their refunds... *ahem* Triton. There will always be crooks out there but not everyone is a bad guy so I hope it doesn't sway people from supporting the scene.

I am happy to use KS or any other crowd-funding source to help bands fund their album projects. It is VERY hard to get the funds needed to produce an album these days from labels. As a former band manager, I understand the cost that goes into putting out an album. In this economy, it is not always possible for very talented bands to self-fund. I will be using Indiegogo this weekend to start a fundraising campaign to self-publish my "Celebrating Women in Metal Book". It is a great way to cover the costs ahead of time for printing and other incidentals that I will have to front before the book can be put in people's hands.

 

[MetalAges]

I like Kickstarter, IndieGoGo, etc. for the simple fact that I am directly helping a project to create something they may not have otherwise been able to create, or at least not at the level they would prefer.

For me personally, the price point of the various perks is very, very important. The perk itself is important too (limited run release, my name on liners, something special to that affect). Example, I don't want to contribute $25+ just to get a CD - even though I realize that may help the band. I *might* do it with a select few campaigns if I know the CD won't happen without those monies. I buy a lot of music, I can't afford to extend beyond my comfort zone CD-price wise.

I also go into a contribution knowing that any "delivery date" is estimated, and that things happen. You have to remember that for most bands, this is a new thing they're attempting to try out and they may have no real concept of the amount of work it will take to fulfill all the orders. This happened with the Protest the Hero IndieGoGo campaign. They blew their goal out of the water ($125k goal, $340k raised). That's a lot of mailing! The album was released before most contributors received their packages. I received mine 3 weeks or so after release. I wasn't too happy about that. They simply didn't realize the postal choice they made was equivalent to USPS media mail - which can take forever. They didn't communicate very well with the campaign contributors on the how/why this all happened which didn't help things. In the end, they learned a lot, and we all got what we paid for.

I had ordered a special "Creature Box" art book for my boy for last Christmas (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1501595172/creaturebox-the-monster-volume). It was a killer one time printing of a collectible hard back art book. They had manyyyyyy delays due to finding better printers, creating shipping boxes because of the unique size of the book - you name it, they delayed because of it. It eventually came (after Christmas). Again, I was patient, they were completely overwhelmed with the response - I eventually got my item.

I've supported many things: Tornado Chasers season 2, Mike Lepond's Silent Assassins (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637412651/mike-leponds-silent-assassins), Odin's Court, a Screencast of a complete site redesign from a known web guru - there's some really cool stuff out there to support! I've yet to NOT get what I contributed towards - and I hope it stays that way - but I will not let one bad apple ruin the entire bunch.

Also, Kickstarter (and I'm sure the others) state in their terms that a creator is required to fulfill the rewards that were paid for, or to otherwise refund the money to the contributor. How one would go about getting a refund for getting stiffed is another thing entirely - but there is language there to help prevent that from happening.

 

[Bamafan]

I have chosen to contribute to a number of Kickstarter campaigns. The emphasis should be on "chosen". If you don't like Kickstarter, don't contribute.

That said, if Voyager disbands, I am flying to Perth and kicking Danny's ass

 

[Mardoch]

I will be using Indiegogo this weekend to start a fundraising campaign to self-publish my "Celebrating Women in Metal Book". It is a great way to cover the costs ahead of time for printing and other incidentals that I will have to front before the book can be put in people's hands.

I'd back that. Sounds like a really neat project.