Problematic guitars and tuning methods

[Behind]

Hi guys, I just wanted to share my experiences since I have been struggling lately with the tuning of my guitar and, after some time learning how it reacts to my playing, I have been wondering how you approach this in your studios as there's a lot off different guitar players and instruments you have to deal with.

There's some people playing harder than others, guitars reacting like they are made out of butter when you stress the strings (as mine), different string gauges, etc.

In my case, when tuning my ESP VIPER, I played the string and waited until the tone sat. After analysing the reaction of the string to the pick attack, I discovered that it oscillates very much until the note disappears. I mean, the note goes sharp and suddenly goes lower and lower and lower till it's stupidly flat... It's like that BOOOOWWWWWWWW sound of djent with the difference that, in this case, the tone seems to decrease more and more until it sounds out of tune.

Here you can hear that phenomenon if you don't believe it:



Direct link:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4161142/boww.mp3

If you download the file and check it with a tuner in your DAW, you'll see what I'm talking about. Imagine to deal with that and trying to tune THAT unstable thing. What I was doing when tuning was to take that super low point of the oscillation as a reference point to tune my sixth string. You can imagine that this drove me crazy since the sixth string seemed to be sharp all the time after perfectly tuning it.

I tried everything to solve the problem: the tune-o-matic bridge was kind of loose and I bought some washers to sit it correctly; I checked all the saddles (Sperzel locking tuners) and tightened them; I checked the nut and made better holes; I perfectly executed the intonation of the instrument... I mean, I tried EVERYTHING and the fucking sixth string still seemed to be out of tune all the time.

At one point I just wanted to take the instrument and smash it against the wall but... Well, after trying all of this, I found that the origin of my problem was the way I tuned my guitar.

I confess it took me a lot of time to get this conclusion. I just accepted that this guitar is really sensitive to the pick attack. So, to put a solution to my problem, I tuned by attacking compulsively the strings. It's a very difficult way to tune, as the tuner moves a lot in this way and you have to be very patient to find the sweet spot. But... It worked incredibly well!

Since what we listen when playing is the constant sound of the pick attacking the string, it has a lot of sense to tune your guitar in that way.

What are your experiences? Have you had any similar situations? How is your tuning method?

 

[kylendm]

Yeah I've had that problem. The only things that fix it are playing lighter, getting thicker strings, or getting an extended scale instrument to get the tighter tension with smaller strings.

 

[Boerboel666]

Interesting read , I have a few guitars and one in particular is an absolute bitch to keep in tune for recording . Don't know if it's a coincidence but it is also an ESP viper tuned d standard 10-52 string gauge .

 

[Behind]

Yeah I've had that problem. The only things that fix it are playing lighter, getting thicker strings, or getting an extended scale instrument to get the tighter tension with smaller strings.

I tried to play lighter but I tend to play harder on gigs so I managed to find something else.

May I ask which guitar had the same problems?

Interesting read , I have a few guitars and one in particular is an absolute bitch to keep in tune for recording . Don't know if it's a coincidence but it is also an ESP viper tuned d standard 10-52 string gauge .

That's strange dude. Same guitar, same problem. I use 10-52 too but E standard. I get that booww when tuning to drop D so I imagine it's directly related with low tunings or maybe the Viper just doesn't like D

Have you experienced it with thicker gauges?

 

[Sweetnothing]

I've had that problem many times, mostly gibson scale guitars.

And it gets worse the higher the action is, so I only had two options, playing lighter or lowering the action until the fret buzz was bearable.

I know, not a good solution, but for live playing works.

 

[Mago]

*waiting for Ermz to jump in*

 

[kylendm]

I tried to play lighter but I tend to play harder on gigs so I managed to find something else.

May I ask which guitar had the same problems?



That's strange dude. Same guitar, same problem. I use 10-52 too but E standard. I get that booww when tuning to drop D so I imagine it's directly related with low tunings or maybe the Viper just doesn't like D

Have you experienced it with thicker gauges?

Mainly my Ibanez JEM7VWH.

I since traded it for a UV777 I'll let you know if the low string on that guitar does this. My LTD MH-417 doesn't do this and it's a standard scale 25.5" seven string.

 

[Zozobra]

Its pretty unavoidable, its just a matter of how much youre gonna get. The string oscillating stretches it slightly, so its higher pitch at the start of the note. Tune to the attack of the note, or shortly after, or as said, play lighter (and probably with higher gain) or with heavier strings (and probably with lower bass).

Pianos do the same thing. Even half decent keyboards. One recent session with a blues-rock band (with a keyboard player) had the guitarist frustrated with the accuracy of reatune (which I like to use because of said accuracy) and he joked about testing the keyboard into it as well. I didnt take it as a joke, thought it would be interesting tried it, and sure enough, the pitch started out at the attack of each note about 5-10 cents sharp, and decayed to bang on +/-0.1 cents.

 

[ze kink]

I always tune my drop Ab -tuned 7-string a little bit lower on the Ab and Eb strings, because I tend to hit them that much harder. While playing it is unnoticeable, and if I play arpeggiated stuff higher up the neck that utilize the low strings (or just with lighter pick attack), I automatically bend them slightly so they're in tune. The guitar is a horrible instrument intonationwise, you just have to deal with it unless you get some of those true temperament frets, which look completely seasick (even though I regularly play a fanned fret guitar). The g-string always seems to be a bitch unless it's wound, but they're less fun for bending.

And considering bends, don't get me started on compensating 2-string bends with floating bridges, practicing that really sucked ass

 

[kylendm]

Also try picking closer to the bridge.

 

[Headof75]

Are the Vipers that people are talking about ESP or ESP Ltd? The Ltd (even the deluxe) have those Earvana compensated nuts, the factory that manufactures which should be bombed...

As well as the BOOOOWWWWWWWW effect, my set neck Viper Ltd Deluxe with locking tuners, would also not hold it's tuning from take to take. Go figure.

Also, unfortunately, probably go and buy something else.

 

[Boerboel666]

Mine is ESP not ltd

 

[Ermz]

It's impossible to avoid entirely because the instrument, at its core, is a piece of shit. It also fundamentally isn't designed for the super-low tunings that it's subjected to in modern metal. You just have to make the most of poor circumstances. Any decent tuner paired with a chromatic run up the instrument will show you how imperfect all guitars, even the most high-end models, actually are.

The best 'fix' I've found to diminish pitch drift issues is to get an extended scale instrument. Anything below 25" will make you want to kill yourself. 25.5" can be usable. 26.5" can actually be tolerable.

One of my old guitar techs told me that the 'break angle' between the bridge (tune-o-matic) and the string holes in the body (string-thru) can make a difference to this initial pitch spike too. Not sure how true that is, but it may be another consideration for you.

The other obvious one, of course, is the attack of your pick on the strings, as well as the pick's thickness, density and the amount of contact it makes with the string. For instance, a 1.5mm Dunlop Sharp will generally detune a string much more than a .6mm Tortex pick will.

String gauge is obvious too, but it has diminishing returns. The higher you go, the more 'blunt' the instrument starts to sound, and it can basically start to sound lifeless at a certain point. Make the strings as thick as you need to in order to get the right 'feel', but no thicker.

Make sure there's enough relief on the neck, and the action is high enough for the strings to resonate without interruption. Sometimes bouncing off the frets will throw a string's natural vibration off, and you'll get odd pitch swings.

You must tune specifically for the part that you're playing. If it's a fast, thrashy section, then you generally tune the strings flat, as the initial pitch spike is all that will be heard. If you're holding long chords (the worst possible situation for tuning) then you need to find the right compromise. Perhaps deal with the initial hit being slightly sharp, in order for the instrument to settle more 'in tune' as it rings. Bear in mind that different strings will settle at different rates, and a chord that is in tune one moment will be out of the tune the next, even if you've done nothing but fret the guitar. In the end, just do whatever sounds best - whatever will make the singer want to kill you less.

 

[Behind]

We all know that there are pitching issues when you play chromatically through your guitar. That has been scientifically proven and that's one of the reasons why things like true temperament exist.

Apart of that, there's this Booowww phenomena I'm talking about. Its effect is really noticeable in some guitars. I have asked this to a lot players and luthiers and nobody knows the reason. This seem to happen randomly depending on the instrument and I have seen that with my own eyes by comparing my own guitars.

It's hard to believe that a shitty 15 years old Ibanez RX series kicks an ESP VIPER STANDARD in the ass when talking about pitches and intonation. The ibanez is as it came from the factory: shitty wood, shitty tuners, shitty pick-ups and so on, and it plays always perfectly. It doesn't matter what you do. I play hard, it sounds good. I play light, it sounds good. It falls to the floor... It stays in tune. Believe it or not, that was my first guitar and I thought every guitar was like that...

Then I bought an Esp Viper to have "a REAL GUITAR". It had high quality components everywhere: emg , gotoh, sperzel, mohagony... BUT the instrument seems to be fucked up by some reason.

So my conclusion is that there's something concerning the construction of some guitars that make them defective. It's a fact and I don't know the cause of it. It could be the wood, the position of the stars... Whatever. There are guitars were the boowww effect is just uncontrollable and it affects the tuning in a way that you have to think about tuning strategies to deal with it.

 

[Zozobra]

A lot of this is to do with strings. Heavy strings in particular; as gauge goes up, most of the time, just the wind gauge incareases, the core gauge stays the same through massive gauge increases. That makes for innately flubbier sounding and less stable strings.

Something that helps is using strings with heavier cores for the same gauge.

You can find a few off the shelf (iirc Kerly Sinisters have thicker cores than most of the same gauge, dunlop make some called heavycore where its the selling point - I get mine made by Newtone Strings)

The thicker cores give higher tension for the same tuning. Benefits:
- Higher tension. Duh.
- No more mass for the increase in tension, so you dont have to deal with bloaty low mids and top bass to get higher tension.
- The core/wrap ratio affects the initial excursion of the string a lot; the attack of the note and initial increase in pitch is faster/shorter and low end has a much more defined and clear impact rather than flub.

Drawbacks
- Hard to get hold of. I get mine in batches of 10 packs that take a month to arrive. The ones I use (again, newtones) last a really long time though, as they're lightly tin plated (rather than being coated in overtone stifling gunk).
- Its not a perfect solution, but every little bit helps.

I'd suggest getting Newtone to make you whatever gauges you currently use, but ask them to use the thickest cores they can in those gauges. I'm on 12-56 in drop B@ 25.5" and the 56 is about as tight physically and much more stable and tight tonally than a diadarrio 62.

 

[Behind]

A lot of this is to do with strings. Heavy strings in particular; as gauge goes up, most of the time, just the wind gauge incareases, the core gauge stays the same through massive gauge increases. That makes for innately flubbier sounding and less stable strings.

Something that helps is using strings with heavier cores for the same gauge.

You can find a few off the shelf (iirc Kerly Sinisters have thicker cores than most of the same gauge, dunlop make some called heavycore where its the selling point - I get mine made by Newtone Strings)

The thicker cores give higher tension for the same tuning. Benefits:
- Higher tension. Duh.
- No more mass for the increase in tension, so you dont have to deal with bloaty low mids and top bass to get higher tension.
- The core/wrap ratio affects the initial excursion of the string a lot; the attack of the note and initial increase in pitch is faster/shorter and low end has a much more defined and clear impact rather than flub.

Drawbacks
- Hard to get hold of. I get mine in batches of 10 packs that take a month to arrive. The ones I use (again, newtones) last a really long time though, as they're lightly tin plated (rather than being coated in overtone stifling gunk).
- Its not a perfect solution, but every little bit helps.

I'd suggest getting Newtone to make you whatever gauges you currently use, but ask them to use the thickest cores they can in those gauges. I'm on 12-56 in drop B@ 25.5" and the 56 is about as tight physically and much more stable and tight tonally than a diadarrio 62.

That's very interesting and it's something I didn't know.

How much does it cost your newtone custom set? I'll try a set of dunlop heavy core to test if they improve the booww effect. Thanks a lot for the info.

 

[Zozobra]

Newtone customs work out at about £7 a set, a little under I think. They only advertise certain sets, but will make any gauges you want.

 

[Behind]

I think I found a solution for the problem!

I'll tell you the idea. Please, tell me if I'm doing something wrong.

My current gauge is 046 in the sixth string (E standard tuning). To find the sweet tension to avoid the Boww effect, I tuned my guitar higher and higher until the tuner didn't show any oscillation at all. I tuned my guitar until I reached G, and I tell you that the tuner needle didn't move at all. Just plain G. No Bow, no oscillation. Just a perfect note. Amazing!

Now I have to find a string that keeps the same tension but tuning in E standard. How can I know the tension that I need? Any ideas?

 

[kev]

I guess you could use a tension calculator somehow. But surely a low E tuned to G, if all your strings are that taught will cause you a nightmare for bends etc. Sounds like you might not give a shit about that though at this stage!

Please nobody post the link for auto tune for guitar

 

[maggot9779]

I think I found a solution for the problem!

I'll tell you the idea. Please, tell me if I'm doing something wrong.

My current gauge is 046 in the sixth string (E standard tuning). To find the sweet tension to avoid the Boww effect, I tuned my guitar higher and higher until the tuner didn't show any oscillation at all. I tuned my guitar until I reached G, and I tell you that the tuner needle didn't move at all. Just plain G. No Bow, no oscillation. Just a perfect note. Amazing!

Now I have to find a string that keeps the same tension but tuning in E standard. How can I know the tension that I need? Any ideas?

I'd imagine tuning a string like that would really fuck up your sustain. Not to mention bends and such.