ProgPower video has hit youtube

[Creeps]

Think of how much the technology has changed just since ProgPower's inception? Almost everyone has a smart phone and almost everyone is on some kind of social network. It must be taxing, to say the least, to try to stop everyone from filming.

Even so, how do you know someone isn't just taking a lot of pictures holding up their phone? Or waiting for that "perfect shot" of their favorite band member? I try to get those perfect shots all the time. Camera phone picture and video quality is usually pretty bad. Especially if you're not at stage and have to zoom in, then it gets all grainy. Audio is rarely perfect on the video as well.

It's not criminal to take pictures and videos on your phone. It is criminal to sell something that violates (c) law. If you're posting videos on social sites, most bands don't care. If they do, then they will go through the procedures of having that particular site take it down and you most likely will get a slap on the wrist email.

The days of being able to control bootlegs is about over. You can't not let people bring in their cell phones. People have kids, emergencies happen, jobs call... on and on. If there's a strict no filming policy, about the only folks that will get caught will be found at the stage or the sound board. Does anyone care about a video taken from the cheap seats that you can barely see the artists because most video won't let you zoom on phones? Would they care about the audio quality from the fan that happens to be in the blast zone for the bass guitar that drowns out everything but the drunk guy 4 people down?

Keep in mind, I am not defending anyone or pro this or that, just participating in the discussion.

 

[Mardoch]

It's pretty easy to see the difference between waiting for a shot and recording. The giant red dot reveals all.

The quality being terrible is precisely the reason to object. And it is illegal. It's complicated and kinda dumb, but putting concert recordings on YouTube isn't fair use. (to the best of my knowledge, ianal)

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

It's great for the bands, great for exposure, blah, blah, blah. But, we've ALL been told that video is not to be done. Glenn's fest, Glenn's coin, Glenn's rules.

 

[Creeps]

I don't think it has anything to do with fair use. Infringement is measured by how much money you make by selling someone else's work for profit.

 

[Creeps]

It's great for the bands, great for exposure, blah, blah, blah. But, we've ALL been told that video is not to be done. Glenn's fest, Glenn's coin, Glenn's rules.

Obviously.. I just stated that it would be taxing to enforce it because anyone at anytime could be seen as a potential bootlegger/recorder when they take their phone out.

 

[Mardoch]

I don't think it has anything to do with fair use. Infringement is measured by how much money you make by selling someone else's work for profit.

Reproducing something someone had to expend money/resources to create and giving it away for free without their permission is definitely a form of economic loss. I don't buy that argument I'm all cases, but I do believe it applies here.

 

[Creeps]

Reproducing something someone had to expend money/resources to create and giving it away for free without their permission is definitely a form of economic loss. I don't buy that argument I'm all cases, but I do believe it applies here.

That's just from memory from my (c)law class some years back. But if you record a video and DON'T reproduce it for profit... that's what I'm talking about. If you start burning CDs and selling them, THEN it takes money out of the pockets of the band in question and they got you.

I'm just talking about an average fan walking in.. recording one song to keep on his phone or post for free.

Kind of like taking a picture of someone in a band or a celebrity. That's not a violation AND you can sell it to make a profit (the picture is your property) and this is how photographers make their living. There's many areas this can go off in, obviously.

Anyhow.. it is what it is.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

That's just from memory from my (c)law class some years back. But if you record a video and DON'T reproduce it for profit... that's what I'm talking about. If you start burning CDs and selling them, THEN it takes money out of the pockets of the band in question and they got you.

Ahh, the "Robin Hood" mentality ... as long as you distribute it w/o getting paid it's allright?

No sir, you're completely wrong.

What would happen if I walked into 7-eleven and grabbed a few coca cola bottles and some beef jerky and then stood outside the store and handed it out to everyone who walked by? You don't think I would be charged for stealing? The argument "but I'm not SELLING it" won't hold up in court.

The fact is that as long as you're distributing something that isn't yours to distribute, whether its for monetary gain or not, it's illegal.

The ONLY situation where it actually would be okay to record somebody playing a show and giving the recording away for free, would be if the musicians had NOT registered / copyrighted their songs. However, I'm 99.99999999% certain that all bands performing at ProgPower USA have their songs registered.

c.

 

[dcowboys311]

Here are two conversations that have never happened and never will:

1) "Wow, this youtube video from some dude's phone with blown out sound and crappy video quality sucks. What a terrible band!"

2) "Wow, this youtube video from some dude's phone with blown out sound and crappy video quality sucks. I'm going to keep listening to this and not seek out the recorded material!"

 

[Barrister]

Hope this isn’t too boring but in the US at least fair use is determined by a 4-part test. Basically these factors are considered:

1) The purpose and character of your use;
2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
3) the amount and substantiality of the portion taken; and
4) the effect of the use upon the potential market.

YouTube Bootlegs of entire songs are probably not fair use. Copyright law has really fallen behind the times and technology though. Infringing activities are everywhere and so common to the point of making many of the laws seem silly.

Another issue is your ticket though. Tickets are revocable licenses, and here part of the license agreement was “no video.” Ideally, I’d like to see PPUSA drop the “no video” rule and let the copyright owners handle it themselves. But it’s not my festival and I’ll follow the rules as they happen to be.

 

[Creeps]

Ahh, the "Robin Hood" mentality ... as long as you distribute it w/o getting paid it's allright?

No sir, you're completely wrong.

What would happen if I walked into 7-eleven and grabbed a few coca cola bottles and some beef jerky and then stood outside the store and handed it out to everyone who walked by? You don't think I would be charged for stealing? The argument "but I'm not SELLING it" won't hold up in court.

The fact is that as long as you're distributing something that isn't yours to distribute, whether its for monetary gain or not, it's illegal.

The ONLY situation where it actually would be okay to record somebody playing a show and giving the recording away for free, would be if the musicians had NOT registered / copyrighted their songs. However, I'm 99.99999999% certain that all bands performing at ProgPower USA have their songs registered.

c.

Of course doing that to a store is stealing, however, we are not discussing that. We are discussing a live performance, which has not been copyrighted, of copyrighted material. There are different laws for different crimes so shoplifting and playing robin hood doesn't have anything to do with recording a band on your cell phone. We all know stealing is bad, that was not the topic.

What if you recorded a band who is playing a cover song of someone else? They obviously don't hold the rights to that song. The venues usually have to pay a flat publishing fee every year (I think) to be able to have jukeboxes, DJs and bar bands because they are making money while the music is being played. So how would they handle a video of say.. Silent Force covering Priest from PPIII if it appeared online for free?

The question is; being that you recorded something, like a photographer taking a picture of a celebrity, does it fall under fair use because you're not selling it. Not one of us here is a judge or a (c) lawyer, I just took it for a semester so I'm no expert. The way some of the law is stated it appears that if it's not a major impact on the artist earning their living that it is OK.

There are many mediums this would affect; podcasts, webzines, fanzines, video and audio reviewers, etc... According to fair use, you can use (c) material for news reports, critique and all that jaz. It would seem someone could post a video with a review of the show the attended and be in the clear, provided they do not charge for their review.

I would be interested for someone to chime in here that deals with making the freebees we have received at ProgPower.. the CDs and the free magazine. Are all the pictures in said magazine owned by the person printing it? Did they receive permission for each photo of the bands? Or does it fall under this fair use because they are not charging for the magazine? How does that affect the advertising charged to be placed in the magazine even though it is free?

This is a good and hopefully informative discussion.

 

[DVDVampire]

You should probably let the bands, the venue and the festival be the judge of what's "great exposure" for them.

In my opinion you are nothing but a criminal! You should be punished for your crimes.

Thanks,
Claus

Thanks. Appreciate it.

 

[DVDVampire]

The times, they are a changing and its the age of amateur video. As the times do change, versatility is the key to capitalize on this new found exposure. I believe that these videos can be used to an advantage and as free advertising for the fest. Free is good right? The main videos I would personally be concerned about , are the ones that show the entire fest. I can see where that would hurt profits if a DVD was to be sold. But this year, there is no DVD so a few videos on youtube will only help in the long run. We all have to conciser the longterm effects here for the fest. If you want new blood to continue, it is very prudent to follow the trends of the modern age and Glenn is a genius at that. This is a very smart move IMO. If you are going to survive you have to adapt and PPUSA is a survivor and a fighter.

That's exactly what it is. The bands don't pay us and we don't expect anything in return.

Take Radiohead (for example). There is a vast network created by fans that share audio/video from all their performances. Last I check, those guys had zero issue selling out a show.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Take Radiohead (for example). There is a vast network created by fans that share audio/video from all their performances. Last I check, those guys had zero issue selling out a show.

The problem with that statement though is that the bigger bands can afford to do this. The smaller bands, i.e. bands that play this festival don't have the luxury of selling out at will.

 

[General Zod]

It's not for each individual to determine what the ideal social media strategy should be for their favorite bands. If the bands want someone to post smart phone quality videos of their performances to YouTube, don't you think they could simply ask someone to stand in the audience with a cell phone and record it?

People can use any analogy they want to justify their actions. They can cite as many examples of other bands who allow such recordings as they wish. However, if the specific band, their management and the concert promoter haven't given you permission to record and distribute their performance, and you do so anyway because you've decided it's somehow justifiable, you're just being a douche bag.

 

[DVDVampire]

The problem with that statement though is that the bigger bands can afford to do this. The smaller bands, i.e. bands that play this festival don't have the luxury of selling out at will.

... and how do you think they got so big?

 

[Justin G]

... and how do you think they got so big?

Radio? MTV? Record labels? I'm pretty sure uploaded fan-filmed videos are fairly low on that list.

Don't get me wrong, I think bands should take advantage of this kind of thing, but that's up to them to decide. Not you.

 

[DVDVampire]

It's not for each individual to determine what the ideal social media strategy should be for their favorite bands. If the bands want someone to post smart phone quality videos of their performances to YouTube, don't you think they could simply ask someone to stand in the audience with a cell phone and record it?

People can use any analogy they want to justify their actions. They can cite as many examples of other bands who allow such recordings as they wish. However, if the specific band, their management and the concert promoter haven't given you permission to record and distribute their performance, and you do so anyway because you've decided it's somehow justifiable, you're just being a douche bag.

Douche? Really?

So you're bascially saying that zero footage from this last ProgPower is completely acceptable?

Jesus, it's like you don't want these bands to succeed in the US. Some of you come across like you have some "elitist" mentality because your favorite band is from overseas and you get to see them once a year when they tour the US.

 

[DVDVampire]

Radio? MTV? Record labels? I'm pretty sure uploaded fan-filmed videos are fairly low on that list.

Don't get me wrong, I think bands should take advantage of this kind of thing, but that's up to them to decide. Not you.

Seriously?

Jesus...

Funny thing is that I wouldn't be a fan of melodic/symphonic rock today if it wasn't for Napster. That introduced me to Sonata Arctica, Nightwish and a slew of other bands I would have never found on Radio, MTV and definltely not through any of the mainstream US record labels.

 

[AngraRULES]

Douche? Really?

So you're bascially saying that zero footage from this last ProgPower is completely acceptable?

Jesus, it's like you don't want these bands to succeed in the US. Some of you come across like you have some "elitist" mentality because your favorite band is from overseas and you get to see them once a year when they tour the US.

Have you stopped to think about the fact that maybe some of those people who don't agree with you actually have a stake in this business as opposed to being "fans" who have nothing to do other than bootlegging concerts and sharing them with the world?

No? Yeah, I didn't think so.

The day you actually know what you're talking about, then we'll talk. Until then, keep shooting your videos and posting them around.

Oh, and by the way, if during any of my tours an artist/promoter/myself ask for NO VIDEOS to be shot and you're caught doing that, I'll escort you out myself. If everyone is OK with it, then by all means do it. However, NO means NO. It's always nice to be respectful to the rules.