Purist Black and Death Metal extremists....

[Michael TEOF]

I like a variety of metal music, including some of the hardcore death and black metal. But there are always the purists out there who will loath whatever I listen to as watered down commecial crap. I love Opeth, Therion, and Children of Bodom... but of course these are all weakling sell out bands according to the purists out there!

Ever come across those people that believe a metal band should only make records that sound like they were recorded in a garbage can, mixed by a third grader pushing buttons on a control board, and produced by a hungover crack fiend ? ... and most importantly the music must be limitted to no more than 88 copies!

I remember meeting this one guy who said he was big into metal and the heavier stuff. I figured I'd introduce him to Bodom... figuring they're one of the greatest metal bands of the modern era. Of course keyboards and melodies are a no-no to these people. Good production and washing your hair once in a while are also signs of selling out too. This guy was a death metal purist who was only into double bass drumming, staccatto riffing... and maybe he'd venture into some classical soloing. Oh yeah, no clean sung vocals... power metal is of course a no-no! I can somewhat understand these people. If you believe metal is about raw destructive energy, a band like Bodom would make no sense to you. But then when is "raw destructive energy" noise as opposed to music? Hooks, melodies, and interesting arrangements are good parts of music in any genre in my point of view....

Black metal purists are just as close-minded but scarrier in my opinion. The ones that believe in darkness and satan and evil are especially laughable. I know a lot of you guys like black metal tunes (heck so do I) and thats cool. But some of the bands that murder their bandmates and violentally attacking society in some form of self-craving nihilism is beyond pathetic. I find the "black metal" philosophy to be a harmful psuedo-intellectual lifestyle that takes advantage of weak minds who feel they need to belong to a part of something that will accept them.

So I don't mean to offend anyone on this board, but I was curious what Bodom fans thought of the whole purist death/black metal hardcore fans out there and their dismissal of even bands like Bodom as watered down commercial trash.... because Bodom don't actively write about destroying society, use keyboards, and don't base their songs on purely stacatto or tremolo (for black metal) riffing only.

I truly appreciate most forms of metal out there. With the divisions between prog metal, death metal, black metal, doom metal, thrash metal, and power metal out there... some people get a little too bogged down in their own genre... Some people even consider Dimmu Borgir sell out non-Black metal crap ... To be honest I'm not even sure if I've ever really heard black/death metal as some of these purists perceive it!

Oh well... this is just my rant. Feel free to share your experiences with close minded metal heads, anti-bodomites and the whole Pagan/Satan/Nihilism Black metal philosophy as well

 

[MacMoney]

Just because someone doesn't like Bodom or Dimmu Borgir they're purists and/or extremists? I mean neither CoB or Dimmu Borgir have anything to do with death or black metal.

 

[Stun]

Not to throw the board into dispute, but am I wrong or do I hear black metal in Dimmu Borgir and (to a lesser degree) in CoB? Plus SW had it's death metal influences. CoB aren't sellouts at all in my opinion. I mean, fast tempo 80's power metal with half-black vox as well as guitar and -keyboard- virtuoso stuff... that doesn't seem very mainstream to me. In Canada, CoB is ultra-extreme compared to the crap that is routinely blaring out of the idiot-boxes and radios.

Murdering bandmates? Did that actually happen? If so, that's going a bit too far, the way I see it.

 

[Michael TEOF]

Wow... I never made such a distinction that "if you don't like Children of Bodom, you're an extremist" at all. I don't know how you could have completely misread what I was saying. I was just commenting on the close-mindedness of the "purists" factions within death/black metal. They don't like Children of Bodom... but they don't like 99% of metal bands (or any other type of music) and have strict criteria for what is a good album... i.e. produced in a garbage can, 88 copies of less, and local only!

Children of Bodom have nothing to do with black/death metal in my opinion- so we're in complete agreement here. Its just if you're a fan of heavy metal... why can't you like good heavy metal bands regardless of the subgenre? In other words, why can't Children of Bodom be good at what they do just like Emperor are good at what they do?

 

[MacMoney]

Sure CoB isn't as commercial as say Limp Bizkit or Britney Spears but they sure are a lot more commercial than say Megiddo, Countess, Nunslaughter for example. Basicly your opinions on "purists" and "extremists" seem to be based on just acquintances and quick meetings with one person and on prejudices.

why can't you like good heavy metal bands regardless of the subgenre?

If they just happen to like death or black metal, why don't let them listen to that?

Murdering bandmates? Did that actually happen? If so, that's going a bit too far, the way I see it.

The point is that not everyone lives according to the same standards as you.

 

[ThePKH]

Nowadays in Finland it's getting fucking weird. The average pop music fan is more openminded than a metalhead that is complaining about it. It's too common that people forget the magical combination of words when talking about music: "in my opinion".

I'm death-tired of the talk that commercial music is shit. Isn't it all supposed to be about music? In my opinion, putting so much focus on image(painted faces, evil looks?) is far more commercial than having catchy melodies and clean singer.

 

[Michael TEOF]

First off, I don't buy moral relavitism when you stretch it to murder and harming people. There comes a point where there's only so much society can take. There are limits to how far this "open-mindedness relativism" philosophy can you take you in life. The "fuck society" philosophy is very popular in metal, but I don't stretch it to nihilism. Thats just as dumb as the things extreme purist metal heads hate about "society."

Secondly to mac money, certainly pop music and metal have their own relative standards within the genre of what is "pure" metal and what is "panning to a broader audience." You can't deny me, however, that the purist bands themselves take on some extreme points of view in their lyrics. Now, we must asume they believe what they're writing. Otherwise, they're not a "purist metal" band, but one trying to sell records by writing what they feel people will buy. Fans who buy into this stuff and isolate themselves from the rest of music world are "purists" in my mind. Read the first paragraph again to understand where I'm going with this...

 

[Carnivore]

btw: is getting a "big" band related to getting a "sell-out"band ?
this is a thing i see very often, a guy comes along saying,yeah this band is so cool...check it out,some months later this guy says the same band is comercial sellout crap, because he's no more the only one who likes it...i think this is shit...
in my mind comercial sell-out is when a band betrays their fans by forgetting their roots like metallica or theatre of tragedy or paradise lost, not to forget type o negative...they make completely differrent music now, and it sounds shitty ...but as COB did nothing like this there is no point for me talking of them as a "sell-out-band"

 

[Bodom-Metal]

i dont really care. i just like good bands.

doesnt matter if they are "commercial" or "underground", as long as they can play.

i think its kinda funny though that bands get labeled as "commercial" and "sellouts" if they become popular.

an exception is metallica, who did sellout big time.

as for Black metal, people say htat shit about CoF and Dimmu.

i still hear black metal in Dimmu and CoF, but Dani himself said that CoF has become more than black metal, they still have influences but they dont consider themselves as a black metal band anymore.

and Dimmu...just b/c a band gets popular and produces records that doesnt sound like it was recorded in someone's basement, means they arent "true"?

 

[MacMoney]

Nowadays in Finland it's getting fucking weird. The average pop music fan is more openminded than a metalhead that is complaining about it. It's too common that people forget the magical combination of words when talking about music: "in my opinion".

I've long since noticed that the likings of the majority aren't the truth or the right course for every matter.

I'm death-tired of the talk that commercial music is shit. Isn't it all supposed to be about music? In my opinion, putting so much focus on image(painted faces, evil looks?) is far more commercial than having catchy melodies and clean singer.

True, but we're talking about actual black metal bands who play black metal, not a bunch of image obsessed freaks. The days of actual black metal bands wearing corpsepaint are long gone.

You can't deny me, however, that the purist bands themselves take on some extreme points of view in their lyrics. Now, we must asume they believe what they're writing. Otherwise, they're not a "purist metal" band, but one trying to sell records by writing what they feel people will buy. Fans who buy into this stuff and isolate themselves from the rest of music world are "purists" in my mind. Read the first paragraph again to understand where I'm going with this...

*sigh* You really take every lyric you read seriously? Ever heard of comedy? Satire? Sarcasm? Symbolism? I guess I'm not getting your point here.

as for Black metal, people say htat shit about CoF and Dimmu.

Metalheads slag Linkin Park and Slipknot. Why? Because they're called metal without being such. Same reason with CoF and Dimmu.

i still hear black metal in Dimmu and CoF, but Dani himself said that CoF has become more than black metal, they still have influences but they dont consider themselves as a black metal band anymore

They've never been black metal and most probably won't ever be.

and Dimmu...just b/c a band gets popular and produces records that doesnt sound like it was recorded in someone's basement, means they arent "true"?

 

[dawnghost]

AMEN!!!

Moral relativism is CRAP, pseudo-intelectual CRAP.
Satan here, satan there, all too fucking pathetic.

Hail true music.
Hail Michael TEOF.

Nice points of view.

 

[Michael TEOF]

Concerning the post about satire in black-metal lyrics... I suppose Dimmu Borgir don't really want to slaughter Christians like they say in their lyrics, but then again, most purist black metal fans hate Dimmu Borgir.

Satan is a key component of the underground black-metal culture. Check any "true" black metal bands website, they are serious about embracing evil as a way of life. I won't claim to be an expert on black metal. But I do understand some compositional theory and play guitar enought to discern between metal genres musically. I believe I have a good idea of what black metal is through soundclips, mp3s, albums, discussion, through friends, and reading band websites and checking blackmetal discussion forums online. Maybe I have it all wrong, but I think I know enough information on purist/underground black metal to know its not something I would thoroughly enjoy and could only satisfy my morbid curiosity about why people would be drawn to something so obsessed with evil. Again, the only "black metal" album I own is Dimmu Borgir "Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia." I'm a fan of Borknagar, and some claim me that they are blackmetal... I never thought of them as such though. I've also heard some Darkthrone and a few other bands I forget that were labled with the "Norwegian purist black metal." Maybe I am full of shit... who knows. Thats why I'm posting- to try and understand what this is all about.

Death metal (which I know much more about than black metal) bands often write about satan/demons and use it more for fantasy imagery than an actual message. But from what I always understood, black metal embraces evil as a way of life. Hence, "black" metal... Underground/purist black metal seems to be a lifestyle and philosophy... and not just music.

So here's my impression of black metal... and you Macmoney tell me where I'm going wrong...

Philosophy: Black Metal seeks to open people's eyes to primal desires and curiosities and reject interference from "society."

Politically: Black Metal bands seek anarchism (not national socialism) and actually find a Hobbesian state of nature desirable, because they embrace the wicked and evil.

Musically: Black Metal is heavy metal music using fast tremolo guitar riffing and double bass drums. Its fast and brutal and chaotic with piercing shrieks (as opposed to deep growling) for vocals.

 

[ïn gwïdh rïstennïn]

Politically: Black Metal bands seek anarchism (not national socialism)

National socialism is a part of the black metal scene, although not all bands support it.

 

[ïn gwïdh rïstennïn]

NSBM

 

[Sympozium]

Who gives a fuck if its Black Metal or not, if you fucking like it listen to it and if you dont then dont listen to it.

 

[dawnghost]

I am yet to see something daring to be more ridiculous and pathetic than NSBM.

Those people should be killed with a bullet through their eyes.

Dumb stupid fucks.

 

[MacMoney]

Black metal isn't about embracing evil as a way of life. Those are just sayings of a bunch of wannabe kiddies looking for attention.

It is about embodying a certain nihilistic approach to life.

 

[humus666]

Originally posted by dawnghost
I am yet to see something daring to be more ridiculous and pathetic than NSBM.

Those people should be killed with a bullet through their eyes.

Dumb stupid fucks.

Dawnghost: it's your right to be against NS, but immediatelly judging or even refusing listening to bands that are NS is very closeminded.
I'm not a fascist nor a rascist but some of my favourite groups are NS.

You figure it out, i don't give a fuck anyway...

 

[Carnivore]

FUCK ALL NAZI-PIGS !!! i hate those guys....a fucking disgrace to the metal-spirit....i don't listen to a band (carnivore is the only exception) that is fascist, so i won't buy their albums...and i am not happy with the fact, that i have to check the lyrics of a black-metal-band before i buy the cd, things like nazi-attitude should not happen...people should be more clever
dawnghost is fuckin right !!!

 

[Michael TEOF]

This NSBM thing is a joke... the typical "Society doesn't want you to think for yourself... so think like me instead of society" thing. I consider this ideology evil and dangerous. Government has a responsibility to keep a close eye on organizations like this as well as MAMBLA (Man and Boy Love Association) and child pornography rings. The minute your ideology seeks to destroy society or harm people... I have a big problem with people who conspire to do evil.

But I didn't even want to get into a national socialism debate... I always thought black metal was about anarchy- destroy society and let people be free... just like with underground punk rock.