Kenneth R.
Cináed
Oh, I'm not diving into the classical -> metal debate, just stating the quoted part you seem to agree about!
Question about origin of metal
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Postulate
Have a nice day! :)
- Jul 17, 2008
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Well, razor, I'll make it up to you by not claiming to know everything about grunge and electropop in 30 years.
I'll just leave off with saying anyone who declares bands like Focus metal has clearly only heard Hocus Pocus and not Hamburger Concerto. You want me to look at the whole picture, but you yourself are cherry-picking, and I still feel many of those bands are not metal, despite influencing the genre. Is King Crimson metal because of One More Red Nightmare? Is Yes metal because of Machine Messiah?
AND that I will stand by the classical link to metal being bullshit until any metal bands start showing actual classical influence.
I'll just leave off with saying anyone who declares bands like Focus metal has clearly only heard Hocus Pocus and not Hamburger Concerto. You want me to look at the whole picture, but you yourself are cherry-picking, and I still feel many of those bands are not metal, despite influencing the genre. Is King Crimson metal because of One More Red Nightmare? Is Yes metal because of Machine Messiah?
AND that I will stand by the classical link to metal being bullshit until any metal bands start showing actual classical influence.
I'm curious to hear your definition of the word "influence" or at least a summary of what bands would have to do to demonstrate one.
I hate genres... Tell me what makes "metal" metal. Just because it sounds heavy or metally? The song structure? The use of distorted guitars? What? 
Kenneth R.
Cináed
wow, that was interesting, so I just blast through my typing, without a care BTW and somehow that equals the nonsense Post is spewing ? OK ! Regardless I showed and spoke of many places metal came from and that is it, I didnt state any of those bands as metal, the word wasnt even in use at the time, I dont consider early Sabbath metal just another resource of its early influence and am not ignorant enough to say only two bands had the most important influence. Jesus Christ I was 10-16 years old listening to all that stuff as it was happening, it was a great period in music. Once again because someone dont like it doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Im unsure about the BOC being metal, at least back in the day, they were a good hardrock band, I have heard later stuff where they delved more into the metal sound but would guess that was influenced by the more defined metal sound of the time. Myself I'd think some sounds from earlier Rush were more influencial on metal than BOC but that is just a guess. On your feet or on your knees was a great live album and about the only BOC recording I spent much time around so I could be wrong, otherwise I just associate thim with thier FM radio songs.
Metal is anything fat heavy and hard that makes you want to bang yer head, more recent ideas that is has to be just such and such a way or such and such an attitude, such and such a personna, such and such a way of dressing seem way off target to me as they have little to do with the feel of the music. Metal is a vast spectrum
Im unsure about the BOC being metal, at least back in the day, they were a good hardrock band, I have heard later stuff where they delved more into the metal sound but would guess that was influenced by the more defined metal sound of the time. Myself I'd think some sounds from earlier Rush were more influencial on metal than BOC but that is just a guess. On your feet or on your knees was a great live album and about the only BOC recording I spent much time around so I could be wrong, otherwise I just associate thim with thier FM radio songs.
Metal is anything fat heavy and hard that makes you want to bang yer head, more recent ideas that is has to be just such and such a way or such and such an attitude, such and such a personna, such and such a way of dressing seem way off target to me as they have little to do with the feel of the music. Metal is a vast spectrum
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Okay, I wasn't going to say this, on account of my recent attempts at modesty:
I am the origin of metal. I'm also 9 out of 10 of your favourite super heroes, the Dos Equis guy and the Old Spice guy's role model.
I am the origin of metal. I'm also 9 out of 10 of your favourite super heroes, the Dos Equis guy and the Old Spice guy's role model.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
Ken's the sickest shit ever.
Everyone else, i refer you back to my post (pick one, they're both correct)
Everyone else, i refer you back to my post (pick one, they're both correct)
Postulate
Have a nice day! :)
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I never limited metal to only two bands - and they are the most important from that time period. Sure, people covered and took influence from all sorts in the 70's, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a single heavy metal band at least up through 1990 that didn't take direct influence from Deep Purple and Black Sabbath. Either at the minimum but more often both.
And who ever said I was disregarding things because I don't like them? Personally, I think Focus and Jethro Tull are better than Deep Purple ever was. And as for calling Blue Oyster Cult and Rush metal...the minute you say that is the minute hard rock doesn't even exist, because you're basically equating the two. As far as I know, they didn't have the crunchy, crushing riffs or driving/churning rhythm guitars that make up the metal sound. Blue Oyster Cult was a hard rock band; Rush was a hard rock band that sometimes played a couple riffs in 7. Rush was a big influence on prog metal, yes, huge even (every prog metal band from Watchtower to Fates Warning to Dream Theater to Atheist were rabid Rush fans and it showed) - but that's because prog metal took such delight in synthesizing prog rock with heavy metal, not because Rush was a metal band. If they were a metal band there would have been nothing to synthesize.
We may as well call Kansas and Styx metal, with the criteria you're using. Let's cherry pick some more:
Is that a gallop I hear? Proto-NWOBHM soloing? Must be metal right?
I'm going to turn this around on you: just because you like(d) it doesn't mean it's metal.
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Is there somewhere I said anything was metal and I just forgot about it or am I loosing my marbles here ? Seems to me I just got done saying I did not in my previous post, yet once again I supposedly said many bands from the 70's were metal... fuck I must be going crazy
CantoX
Member
BOC is totally metal. City On Flames?! That song is metal from top to bottom. Hard crushing riffs, singy vocals, and dual guitar harmonizing!
What about Thin Lizzy? They did a lot of those guitar harmonizing parts that are prevalent in metal today. And some of their lyrics have transcended into power metal, like their song emerald. That song has got it all in terms of metal, cheesy lyrics, long instrumental parts, distorted guitars, harmonizing guitars, dueling guitar solos, and awesome vocals.
What about Thin Lizzy? They did a lot of those guitar harmonizing parts that are prevalent in metal today. And some of their lyrics have transcended into power metal, like their song emerald. That song has got it all in terms of metal, cheesy lyrics, long instrumental parts, distorted guitars, harmonizing guitars, dueling guitar solos, and awesome vocals.
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DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
I would Put all above bands mentioned exept Styx in the Prog Rock genre but i do agree with your over all statement
Good point after talking about BOC yesterday I went to check them out and came across Cities on Flame and thought how could I forget that, but its been 35+ years. Seems there was a killer version on On Your Feet or On Your Knees.
Just to be clear as we are now off on later bands such as Rush ('74), Thin Lizzy('71), BOC ('72). What I was trying to illustrate earlier aside from some mid 60's panderings that could be easily turned into "metal songs" (songs not bands !)with the right devices was what happened in 69-71/72.
Zep had two extremely "loud" albums out in 69 but come 1970 we were hammered with Roosters Death Walks behind You, Sabbaths debut and Paranoid, Uriah Heeps debut, LZ III (Immigrant Song, Out on the Tiles), Deep Purple In Rock with 3 previous albums dateing from 68 that had various panderings near metal but still sounding quite 60's and doing lots of heavied up covers. Beside more obscure acts Im unfimiliar with I believe all these bands gave us the founding sounds of metal and were the first wave of british heavy metal. None of these albums were totally in the "metal" groove but all the makings were heard here and there.
This excludes Hendrixs work in 67 with Are You Experienced which was pretty damn in your face loud. Though he did not come real close to the pedaling metal groove with Purple Haze, Manic Depression, Fire and Foxy Lady make no mistake he blew the thing wide open and for the most part escaped the then typical 60's rock sound. He was the Axis of this "heavy" thing
71 was a great year with songs like Hocus Pocus, Mountains Mississippi Queen ('70) Jethro Tulls Locomotive Breath and Cross Eyed Mary, another Sabbath Masters of Reality, LZ moved further on but still gave us Blackdog, another Purple album, two more Heep albums, Rooster was done went bluesy rock
72 saw Deep Purples break through with Machinehead still a largely hard blues rock record with Highway Star being quite metal
Thin Lizzys Jail Break wasnt until 76, Rush didnt break till 75 with Fly by Night and Caress of Steel, Radar love was '73, Kiss ? I dont want to talk about Kiss.. LOL
Regarding "progressive" myself I think all these bands for the most part were progressive, just being a hard pounding hardrock band was Fin progressive at that time but shit the Allman Brothers had gobs of progressive moments, everybody was thinking outside of the box at that time... it still doesnt mean that contributions to the sound of metal were not made.
Rush - progressive, hardrock or "metal" circa '75 ? How about all three ?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_7I5Ozq2rE&feature=related[/ame]
I like to give Joe Walsh honorable mention, he produced this riffage in '70, it goes spacy psychodelic in the last two thirds and then he delves into Bolero (I guess) and some other cover but great opening riff for 1970.
So to sum my points again and ignore what ever Postulates issue is... this is when the throbbing started, excluding Hendirx the axis they were white and not totally bluesy, they did the blues, started by learning the blues, folk as well as some rediculously white pop rock but when they went outside the box and did their own thing that began what would later become metal. There were MANY players.
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prog rock ? Edgar Winter never gets any love yet in 72 widened the door to progressive popularity from what Yes and ELP had established with this early display of what apparently... according to you guys... is wankery.... Derringer on guitar. Like many bands at the time, one style of music was not stuck with so Winters not wholely in the progressive genre.
seems to me in many cases early keyboard players were often very instrumental in the heavy sound, I miss those heavy sounding keyboards, gone to the wayside in favor of orchestration
seems to me in many cases early keyboard players were often very instrumental in the heavy sound, I miss those heavy sounding keyboards, gone to the wayside in favor of orchestration
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Kenneth R.
Cináed
shame on me for not thinking to mention.... Alice Coopers band release two albums in 71 Love it to Death and Killer with thier little twist on rock
sorry for the quality, everything Alice seems to be live
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDxuxl2km4&feature=related[/ame]
finally a studio version
sorry for the quality, everything Alice seems to be live
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDxuxl2km4&feature=related[/ame]
finally a studio version
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Postulate
Have a nice day! :)
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I'm not disagreeing with your views on how the genre was influenced, razor - you obviously know what you're talking about and would know more than I do regarding bands of that era, but I think you're being too lenient in what you call metal. There are always precursors to a genre, but that doesn't mean they're in the genre itself. Anthem is a good example - I don't hear a metal song, I hear straight up hard rock, maybe with some progressive leanings. Metal bands adore Rush, but no way does Rush itself sound like metal to me. Listen to the guitar + bass during the verse...metal does NOT sound like that, at all. If you compare that to UFO, Pentagram, Pagan Altar, Black Sabbath, you can hear the immediate difference. Same goes for Alice Cooper, IMO.
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