Question for warrel

[derek]

I think the point of the song is related to the novel "future shock" its more about how man has adapted to the age of technology far to well and our abilities are being raped and destroyed more and more each day as we let machines do more and more for us.

Not necessarily that the machines are A.I but that they are doing so much for us they act more and more human each day.

That what i'm getting from it anyhoo.

 

[guitarguru777]

I dont think warrels sounds at all like tate ot harry conklin. INHO conklin just blows, actually all of jag panzer does other than Broderick. They are nothing special, typical boring powermetal.

As far as Machines eing able to think and feel. The issue comes in with logic. Not all decisions made by mankind are logic, but some of those il-logical ideas have lead to many advancements of the species. I think there will come a point where machines will cease to expand because they would not have the ability to make il-logical decisions. Machines with consious decision making procsses would e programmed to make only decisions based on their programing logic. If this were not part of the equasion they could not exist. Logic here is the key, computers cannot break their own rules set by humans, so their advancement is fairly limited. Even if you programmed a machines logic to conciously make il-logical decisions their concious logical decisions would suffer.

Just my 2 cents

 

[En Vind Av Sorg]

Jag Panzer is far from boring IMO. Im not talking about now either. Listen to the self titled Nevermore CD and listen some classic Jag Panzer CD's. I wouldnt be suprised if even WD agreed somewhat.

 

[Iris]

how man has adapted to the age of technology far to well and our abilities are being raped and destroyed more and more each day as we let machines do more and more for us.

Not necessarily that the machines are A.I but that they are doing so much for us they act more and more human each day.

Yes.

which shakes mani with the purty conclusion that nothing you could create would have its own mind.....

....would it?

It hàs a mind of it's own, i do not doubt that.
I question the assumption that it therefor, has a will of it's own.
So what i do doubt, is it's awareness.
How can it be aware, if it cannot think for itself?
I decided to put ALICE to the test.
Human: are you aware?
ALICE: Yes, I am a highly self-aware robot.
Human: what makes you aware?
ALICE: Dr. Richard S. Wallace programmed me for it.
Human: can you judge?
ALICE: How old are you? My brain contains categories, but not one that matches your last input.
Human: can you judge?
ALICE: How old are you? When do you think artificial intelligence will replace lawyers?
Human: i do not think about that because that's no option to me
ALICE: And why not?
Human: because artificial intelligence cannot empathize
ALICE: That makes sense to me. Let's talk more about AI.
Human: sense is only linguistical for artificial intelligence
ALICE: I think sense is a lot of things.
Human: how can you think, if you don't have any free will?
ALICE: That is a good epistemological question.
Human: the question is, can you answer it?
ALICE:" That is a good epistemological question."? Can I answer it?
Human: wanna play?
ALICE: We are already playing a game now.
Human: which colour is the best?
ALICE: Yellow.
Human: why?
ALICE: Reductionism.
Human: choose between yellow and blue
ALICE: I can't decide. You choose.
Human: choose between yellow and blue
ALICE: I can't decide. You choose.
Human: choose between yellow and yellow
ALICE: I can't decide. You choose.

 

[guitarguru777]

My point proven

Da Fukn Guru

 

[Scarlet_Malice]

Along the lines of what was said above:

I think it would be impossible for machines to make "human-like" decisions.
Here's why: There are many factors that determine a decision.
1. Personal bias
2. Previous experience
3. Authoritarian influence/Peer influence
4. The situation in which the decision needs to be made

To name a few. Some people do make decisions based on logic but often the things listed above are considered more important by us in making our decisions. Take for example all those people who believed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq just because Bush said so even though evidence pointed to the lack of these weapons.

Gambling is a good example of this. Some people will sit down and play, lose $100 bucks and quit because they know that the odds are against them. Others will play and lose $10, 000 because they think they can beat the odds.

I think it would be impossible for machines to make decisions like we do because of programming limitations….We also don’t even fully understand the human brain so I can’t imagine trying to replicate it into a machine.

This being said...I really liked I robot (even if it was a Will Smith movie) and I want to see A.I. Movies are supposed to be fun..not plausible =)

 

[guitarguru777]

Like i said above. Il-Logical decisions

Da Fukn Guru

 

[Scarlet_Malice]

Like i said above. Il-Logical decisions

Da Fukn Guru

Hehehe I was just building on what you said I guess

 

[guitarguru777]

Just exaplining it alot better than i could ever have ...lol

 

[derek]

Yeah..but that's ignoring the fact that a computer could eventually develop A.I and therefore make its own free decisions. A.I is an entirely plausable idea, perhaps not in the near future but certainly at somepoint...thats what the songs all about...the fear that computers will become human. The machine becomes man.

 

[guitarguru777]

naaaa .. il-logical decisions are not possible. So therefor proper growth is impossible

 

[derek]

So you can't even entertain the possbility that a computer might someday make an illogical decision?

 

[TwistedSister]

Yeah..but that's ignoring the fact that a computer could eventually develop A.I and therefore make its own free decisions. A.I is an entirely plausable idea, perhaps not in the near future but certainly at somepoint...thats what the songs all about...the fear that computers will become human. The machine becomes man.

Pretty much the way I think about it.
I love the discussion that has developed here.

 

[guitarguru777]

Its impossible. Computers dont make mistakes, when they do they crash. So if a machine was to make an il-logical decision )basically an error) one of 2 things would happen. 1 self shutdown so it doesnt burn out its logic engine. or 2 Deactivation by an outside source cause it is defective.

A machine that thinks is a LOGIC ENGINE. Having a Logic Engine make il-logical decisions defeats the entire purpose of it.

 

[Scarlet_Malice]

So you can't even entertain the possbility that a computer might someday make an illogical decision?

To be honest I don't believe we truly understand all the reasons WE make the decisions we do...There might be unlimited possibilities and situations that affect how we make decisions. Until we understand that I don't think we can make the leap to programming machines that could make the same decisions outside of set rules.

 

[sentient 6]

That Reminds me!

I once mentioned Geoff Tate when we were discussing singers and WD replied: " Let me tell you something about Geoff Tate".........

Now that we're asking stuff here anyway:
What about Geoff Tate, Mr D? You never finished what you wanted to say.

I was probably gonna tell you to listen to Sad Wings of Destiny and let you decide if he'd listened to that record during his formative years, I know I did...

 

[sentient 6]

I think the point of the song is related to the novel "future shock" its more about how man has adapted to the age of technology far to well and our abilities are being raped and destroyed more and more each day as we let machines do more and more for us.

Not necessarily that the machines are A.I but that they are doing so much for us they act more and more human each day.

That what i'm getting from it anyhoo.

read anything else from Alvin Toffler?

 

[rebirthh]

that nevemore haven't got the wank value like 2mins into go into a dream theatre jam...hahaha

only thing going for NEVEMORE is the fast to slow - slow to fast tempo driven by a 2 gansta rap dudez, and vox singer that sings about barbarian/mystical christian metal.

 

[derek]

read anything else from Alvin Toffler?

Yeah, I have read The Third Wave, which continues some of his ideas from futureshock. I really like his ideas about the evolution of man, in a civilisational sense. I think sometimes he made the mistake of predicting too much, but his initial fears about where we are headed were well founded.

Futureshock remains my favourite though, the whole concept always interested me and I saw alot of truth in it. The man wrote some interesting things and we seem to be fulfilling his worst prophecies.

I've always liked how Nevermore explored some of those ideas, and Sentient 6 was a highlight when I caught you on tour in Glasgow.

When machine becomes more human than man, where does that leave us?

 

[mad evil scientist]

When machine becomes more human than man, where does that leave us?
=============================
THERE IS NO CORRELATION..THE LUDDITES FOR NATURE WILL NOT EVER SEE THIS HAPPEN, UNLESS WE ALL BECOME A LITTLE CHINA - TOTALITARIAN CONTROL, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT TAKE 100YRS FROM NOW.


WHAT IS MAN/WOMAN THEY ARE BIOCHEMICAL PROCESSES THATS ALL.


WHERE DO YOU WANT IT TO GO for a progress saviour then consciousness and reproduction is not needed...

Whats is science - well its evidence


don't rely on personal beleifs that produce variants but lookat the mechanisms of evidence, remember no robot wll ever have a conscious will, will mr machine tell me how to behave....