real drums ( no slate) ETID style
- Thread starter CatharsisStudios
- Start date
AerialThesis
@ KMR Studios
gabriel g.
Member
sorry I was a bit harsh to you.
But I dont get your point, besides the kick (which is imo 1dB-2dB too loud) the mix is great.
At one point it is realy just personal taste and not objectiv criticim.
So I apologise
But I dont get your point, besides the kick (which is imo 1dB-2dB too loud) the mix is great.
At one point it is realy just personal taste and not objectiv criticim.
So I apologise
AerialThesis
@ KMR Studios
I like to feel the stereo image bouncing with the song's feel and the frequency spectrum breathing alot so the music doesn't feel redundant, especially since all the energy of a mix is mainly stored in the bass content, you need the bass content to jump around a bit so you can feel every musical hit in your chest. But this mix is static for the bass content doesn't move at all and doesn't seem like it has a certain decay in volume even during slow passages, the reverb is mostly hidden troughout the song and it ends up acting like a hole filler and can only be clearly heard when the music suddenly stops, as the compression gets in it's release stage and sucks it back upfront for a second or two. The cymbals are pumping hard on every hit seeming louder and clearer only after it actually hits, plus the compression enhanced the cymbal's swindle and the inharmonic content of the crash, leaving them to sound parasitic and annoying.
gabriel g.
Member
What do you mean with redundant? I only know that word in a technical way...for error-detection and correction
AerialThesis
@ KMR Studios
When the overall tone of a mix stays the same throughout a song, especially when it's not moving alot in terms of dynamics, the music will rapidly feel uninteresting and redundant (repetitive, superfluous). When you are reducing the amount of contrast in a song, your ear's attention to that song will be reduced as well.
Morgan C
MAX LOUD PRESETS¯\(°_o)/¯
It's metal dude, dynamics in metal are generally unwanted. You don't want to hear the bass popping out randomly on certain notes, you don't want the drums to drift between being buried and completely on top, and you can't create dynamics in distorted guitars because they have almost none. People asking for dynamics in metal aren't thinking it through.
I think this comes more down to the production/songwriting side of it, some synths or leads, etc. some cool vocal effects, some clean/acoustic guitar parts would make it feel more interesting, and allow for dynamics, but asking for dynamics in a metal guitar/bass/drum combo is just asking for a shit mix.
AerialThesis
@ KMR Studios
I am not "asking" for dynamic in metal as if there was none in every metal mix.
Dynamics and contrast as it's place in metal and it sounds good too.
No true metal bassist should cause their notes to pop out "randomly"
Metal drummers normally hit hard on their kit and all that punch is often gone with compression and limiting.
(especially when clipping is induced on snare to chop off all it's peak)
Distorted guitar can have sometimes up to 5 dbs of dynamics hidden in their bass content, wich if removed with Eq, will only leave an annoying standing noise in the overall mix.
Vocals are probably what is going to determine the amount of dynamics in a song and compressing them by 25 db may make them seem big as hell, but they mostly become too present and incoherent.
Don't get me wrong, metal is all about taming dynamics and working on that low end so it delivers the energy a mix deserves.
But, compressing everything till every ounce of dynamic is gone and the spectrum barely moves so you can then pan everything the same way you do it for all mixes, is to me, a bit lazy and should require more innovation.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I'm really amazed how Slate-like you got the drums sounding all the same. Quite impressive. Your techniques at tracking kit are definitely getting very good, especially considering the room/gear you're dealing with there. Props man.
Morgan C
MAX LOUD PRESETS¯\(°_o)/¯
Not sure you understand why we use compression on drums.. its to give the drums MORE punch. And unfortunately, most metal drummers DON'T normally hit hard, and need to have their drums replaced. Yes, a lot of punch is lost during mastering to get these volume levels, but that's not really something you can avoid by 'not compressing' during the mix - in fact, it'll end up much much worse.
Personally I'm not a fan of subwoofers flubbing out every time a guitarist does a palm mute, and are you seriously saying that anything above 100hz in a guitar is just annoying noise? Why do you listen to metal?
Vocals pretty much NEED to be crushed, otherwise they'll sometimes be buried, sometimes be riding on top. I'll agree it could be more interesting with some extra vocals, etc. (Ermz always does a fantastic job with this, for a good example), but again that's a songwriting/producing thing and not a mix thing.
After all this I'd feel bad about derailing the thread if I didn't comment on Ryan's mix, so I'll do that in a sec.
It sounds quite nice, also a few things..
- kick way too loud, as others have said, and its very thuddy, too much lowmids I think.
- I'd go for more bottom mic on the snare if possible? Just a bit more crack, its quite tubby/top-micey
- bass could be a bit more present? Guitars could come up a touch too?
Your cymbals sound a bit cheap here, but as always, HUGE. Is it the mics you're using or what? OHs are always really hard for me to nail.
metalfanat1c
Member
- Jun 17, 2010
- 491
- 0
- 16
Nice mix. The vocals sound pretty good considering how lame that vocal style is (IMO). Drums sound awesome, especially the snare. Guitar tone is great. Bass is sitting in the mix quite well, and not burying the kick. Nice work!
depends, my friend.. i 'crush' the vocal until i start hearing: more character, edge, intimacy/aggression, etc.
from here, you're STILL going to have to ride the levels during a mix anyways if you want to inject anything even closely resembling excitement into the mix.
also, dynamics may not have a huge place in metal, but you are quite mistaken if you think automation doesn't have a place...
so i think dude was just pointing out that the mix sounds kind of flat-lined (which is fine, that's how modern sounds now) BUT, the point is to use automation to give what's had the pulse compressed out of it, a little bit of a heartbeat... that's all.
this is something i've learned more recently and i've been guitly of it in the past.. but an engineer who i quite respect opened my eyes in a passing comment he made during a conversation...
the trick ive found, is to do all your automation with SOME kind of 'pseudo-mastering' in place so you know exactly how it's going to sound at the end of the day.
PhilTheBeard
"The Beard"
PhilTheBeard
"The Beard"
Morgan C
MAX LOUD PRESETS¯\(°_o)/¯
Yes, of course you need automation in a mix, and I don't disagree with that AT ALL. Btw, what was that comment, if you don't mind sharing?
The only issue I had was that the guy seemed to not know a whole lot about compression, and with the whole anti-Loudness Wars thing going on, many people are meaninglessly against it.. it sounded to me like he wanted no compression on the drums, maybe 5db compression on the bass/vox which would sound like shit. Compress the vocals til they generally aren't moving a whole lot (not until they are flatlined), and then automate from there. There's no point compressing 5db and automating every single syllable because COMRRESSION IS BAD. I've had to do that once before because of dodgy tracking (too much room sound) and it didn't come out well at all.
chrisrivalry
Member
- May 19, 2010
- 561
- 0
- 16
I can kind of see where you're going with the kick Ryan, since I listen to a bunch of southern style riffy shit like this and the kick isn't typically a metal kick, with no low mids and all attack. In fact it's the complete opposite, listen to ETID or some of Underoaths stuff and the kick is almost completely drowned out in some songs.
- Jun 25, 2008
- 2,198
- 10
- 38
the whole thing about the song never moving is because if you see these guys live, they are just constantly in your face up front, its hard to replicat that in recording
thanks everyone
this ep is comming out killer yeah i suck ass at overheads :|
thanks everyone
this ep is comming out killer yeah i suck ass at overheads :|the whole thing about the song never moving is because if you see these guys live, they are just constantly in your face up front, its hard to replicat that in recording
thanks everyone
Post to let other people have a mix
x
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I gotta admit I'm guilty of not really moving the vocals around much in metal.
For rock stuff yeah I love automating everything, but in metal it's just hard to find the space. I normally spend all my time finding that 'ideal' pocket for everything, and it seems like every volume motion after that just takes it out of said pocket. Most of my automation in metal stuff is trying to get the drums in check, and getting the right low-velocity samples for fills, blasts etc. Then riding vocal and lead delays, verbs etc.
For rock stuff yeah I love automating everything, but in metal it's just hard to find the space. I normally spend all my time finding that 'ideal' pocket for everything, and it seems like every volume motion after that just takes it out of said pocket. Most of my automation in metal stuff is trying to get the drums in check, and getting the right low-velocity samples for fills, blasts etc. Then riding vocal and lead delays, verbs etc.
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