Realization: Metal engineers control low-end best?

[Ermz]

In the course of learning, I've spent a great deal time over the last several years listening to all sorts of metal and rock projects intently.

One thing that seems to consistently strike me is that the low-end on well-produced metal records seems to be tighter and somehow less obtrusive than that of even hugely-funded major label rock mixes.

Has anyone here had similar impressions? Could it be the clarity of ITB mixing, allowing for such clean and solid bass?

The metal records that come to mind are of course the mighty 'Stabbing the Drama', 'The Way of All Flesh' and 'Come Clarity'. I've not heard a rock mix with this solidity and clinical precision in the low-end.

 

[JeffTD]

I'd say they're close, with good dance or pop producers being a bit better.

Then again, totally different styles and needs for the low end.

 

[XnaySaturo]

You have less analog sources and unforseen inconsistencies with dance and pop I'd say though.

+1 for metal producers!

 

[Harry Hughes]

I see what you mean Ermz, but consider that one mans very tight and controlled low end may be another mans a little too thin and not bottom heavy enough.
Rock just typically doesn't have as much movement going.
There isn't blasting insane double kick drums, quad tracked super high gain guitars tuned down to B standard and basses tuned that fair down too, so they can get away with a little more low end I think.

Listening to "Feeling Sorry" and "Looking Up" from Brand New Eyes just as a reference point while reading your post, I honestly think that really heavy, somewhat slightly looser bass that plays along with the guitars sounds fantastic and really fits the songs and the record in general.
But perhaps that sound would be out of place on Chimaira's "Resurrection" or "The Infection" albums or Miseration's "The Mirroring Shadow" album.

To me it's just all about context really

 

[di0de]

The bass on Karnivool's Sound Awake blew me away, you could nearly take the guitars out of the equation and just listen to that for the whole record (might get boring but it would sound great).

 

[Morgan C]

Metal is the only genre that really NEEDS such a tight lowend. You shape the kick so that the lowend is loud but short enough to not interfere with the next note when you're playing at high speeds. The next note in metal is one 16th at 180bpm+ away. In rock its like maybe an 8th at 160bpm away. In dance its every 4th.

 

[Ermz]

Dance is most definitely much easier to mix because of the amount of already consistent and pre-processed sounds you generally deal with. Synths aren't exactly as hard to seat in a mix as mic'ing up a guitar amp from scratch, making sure a guy's string gauge, guitar and playing technique is up to scratch, then running the gauntlet of what works and doesn't. Not to mention synth basses are usually already at a consistent level, and then get limited some more just for the hell of it.

But yes I agree it's all about context. It's just that metal seems to provide some of the most 'technically perfect' mixes for a genre that deals with a lot of imperfect analogue sources. I've had to virtually condition myself to mix looser for other genres after focusing so very hard to get kick/bass/guitar relationships correct in a metal context. There's definitely a fine balance in there and it's pretty hard to achieve most of the time.

 

[kaotic_order]

You're just saying that Ermz because you know the debut DA album guitars/bass are tight as! ;D

 

[smy1]

Dance is most definitely much easier to mix because of the amount of already consistent and pre-processed sounds you generally deal with. Synths aren't exactly as hard to seat in a mix as mic'ing up a guitar amp from scratch, making sure a guy's string gauge, guitar and playing technique is up to scratch, then running the gauntlet of what works and doesn't.

Doing both on a regular basis, I disagree. If you want to get *great* sounds, the act of making and dialing in the right synthsound often takes a lot longer than setting up a guitar, micing a cab, dialing in the amp AND quadtracking a guitar.

That's why there's a lot of average sounding electronica, because dialing in *average* sounds only takes a minute in any genre ...

 

[Ermz]

I don't doubt that, but when it comes to finally seating all those things within the final mix, surely you must notice that the synth sounds and samples are much easier to finalize than very dynamic real drums and guitars?

 

[Morgan C]

very dynamic real drums and guitars?

Are we still talking about metal? ;p

 

[-J-]

luckily bass seems to me like one of the easiest things to "fix yourself" as a listener, say, in a car or whatever. I have a madonna CD that has so much bass it's about ready to rip my speakers in half - I have no idea why anyone would want so much "loose" bass on a final disc. With a quick knob turn though, it's fine. it's just rediculous how much is there to begin with.

it's opposite with say, suicidal tendencies' how will I laugh tomorrow when I can't even smile today" - like no bass at all, but a quick knob turn and it's closer to where it should have been. a lot of old metal like this really lacked bass - why? were they afraid of blowing up customer's crappy stereo systems? did everyone's mindset change about how much bass sounded good?

andy does a great job of making a mix that doesn't require any bass fixes really. you don't really need to turn it up or down. a lot of metal engineers seemed to "get it right," after awhile, you're right. there's still stuff like children of bodom's "hatebreeder" that to me, lacks appropriate bass, but it's more the exception than the rule.

some modern in flames stuff is a bit bass-heavy to me. I probably turn down what you believe is fine. funny how we can sort of re-master stuff on the fly to our satisfaction.

I personally suck at bass frequencies, but for some reason I can pick it out better in other people's work.

 

[beyond dead]

luckily bass seems to me like one of the easiest things to "fix yourself" as a listener, say, in a car or whatever. I have a madonna CD that has so much bass it's about ready to rip my speakers in half - I have no idea why anyone would want so much "loose" bass on a final disc. With a quick knob turn though, it's fine. it's just rediculous how much is there to begin with.

it's opposite with say, suicidal tendencies' how will I laugh tomorrow when I can't even smile today" - like no bass at all, but a quick knob turn and it's closer to where it should have been. a lot of old metal like this really lacked bass - why? were they afraid of blowing up customer's crappy stereo systems? did everyone's mindset change about how much bass sounded good?

andy does a great job of making a mix that doesn't require any bass fixes really. you don't really need to turn it up or down. a lot of metal engineers seemed to "get it right," after awhile, you're right. there's still stuff like children of bodom's "hatebreeder" that to me, lacks appropriate bass, but it's more the exception than the rule.

some modern in flames stuff is a bit bass-heavy to me. I probably turn down what you believe is fine. funny how we can sort of re-master stuff on the fly to our satisfaction.

I personally suck at bass frequencies, but for some reason I can pick it out better in other people's work.

this is a good point, depending on the playback systems that core listeners of that genre are using to play the music, and there taste as far as how it sounds, different genres will require different treatment.

I tend to leave my stereo flat because, as an audio engineer, it has always been ingrained on me to do so in order to accurately hear whats going on with the mix.

therefor I prefer mixes that sound nice and balanced without having to boost frequencies on which ever playback system I prefer (usually something full range) I dont really like boosting frequencies on a stereo, because im pretty sure it would add some nasty coloration to the sound, even if i cant notice it hahaha

one of the biggest reasons metal has tight low end, IMO, is because most metal listeners are audiophiles and are able to appreciate good production, whether they have a production back groud, or what ever. whereas most rock, country, dance listeners use crappy radios, or whatever while they are in the garage or at work or whatever

 

[Sacha]

I don't like the music but I have to say some of the country productions out of Nashville have some amazingly tight, focused and present bass.

 

[dcb]

i think metal needs way more fatness and lowend like in rock (think ratm or korn)...
metal : bass @ 60 Hz kick @ 80-100 hz
rock : bass @ 120 Hz kick @ 60 hz...

i totally love hearing the lowend, not only feeling it (with a sub..)
especially with some great bassplayers. my favorite bass tone
in metal is still mudvayne and of course the mighty tool.
also meshuggah would be nothin without their basssound.

do metal engineers cotnrol low end best... i dont know.

do you mean control as in conservative use of lowend?

 

[Melb_shredder]

I too think the reason is context, 16th notes at 200+ bpm need utmost precisin in those lower frequenciEs where it can make or break a mix, in the heavy rock stuff, you can fill it out a bt
more, a bit looser because there's breathing space between notes, personally I feel this gives the illusion of more bass in itself, the fact you get a break, and then the brick to the balls makes it seem even heavier in rock, and it isn't actually that pronounced

 

[Harry Hughes]

this is a good point, depending on the playback systems that core listeners of that genre are using to play the music, and there taste as far as how it sounds, different genres will require different treatment.

I tend to leave my stereo flat because, as an audio engineer, it has always been ingrained on me to do so in order to accurately hear whats going on with the mix.

therefor I prefer mixes that sound nice and balanced without having to boost frequencies on which ever playback system I prefer (usually something full range) I dont really like boosting frequencies on a stereo, because im pretty sure it would add some nasty coloration to the sound, even if i cant notice it hahaha

one of the biggest reasons metal has tight low end, IMO, is because most metal listeners are audiophiles and are able to appreciate good production, whether they have a production back groud, or what ever. whereas most rock, country, dance listeners use crappy radios, or whatever while they are in the garage or at work or whatever

Oh man, tell me about it.
I cringe when I go to friend's houses and they have their stereo systems set with some fucking stupid bass boost to maximum or whatever.
Can't they hear it sounds like murky, muddy crap?
Or those annoying "sound enhancer " things that increase both the treble and bass, while making it sound a bit scooped. Grossuke: but some people seem to like it somehow, heh.
One time when a friend of mine was in another room, I noticed the 5 band EQ on his stereo was set for an extremely bass and lower mid heavy sound, which made it sound quite muddy and gross, so I started tweaking it to make it sound more flat
It sounded way better after I got to it

 

[crillemannen]

As someone wrote earlier, when it comes to rock, there is not fast double bass drums etc so you dont have to tackle those problems in the low end. I feel that you have to compromise in some ways when it comes to metal in the low end because if you would gain the low end frequency 's it would cloud the whole mix

 

[beyond dead]

I don't like the music but I have to say some of the country productions out of Nashville have some amazingly tight, focused and present bass.

I totally agree

As someone wrote earlier, when it comes to rock, there is not fast double bass drums etc so you dont have to tackle those problems in the low end. I feel that you have to compromise in some ways when it comes to metal in the low end because if you would gain the low end frequency 's it would cloud the whole mix

this is true, but I like the way mixes with tight bottom end sound even when they arent playing 16ths at 180 bpm, some sections they play 1/4 notes
and I happen to personally prefer the tighter sound even at slower tempos

lets compare a dimmu album (fast) with a katatonia album (mid tempo) mix wise. katatonia is a bit slower, but it has the same tight low end as a dimmu mix has. I think that is why TGCD is probably one of my favourite mixes.

I think that metal engineers definitely have more CONTROL over the low end than engineers in other genres.

then again, we should also consider the amount of a) big name metal engineers and b) percentage of metal musicians who have recording/ production know how.

there are so many engineers in the metal community! its very competitive!

 

[Ermz]

one of the biggest reasons metal has tight low end, IMO, is because most metal listeners are audiophiles and are able to appreciate good production, whether they have a production back groud, or what ever. whereas most rock, country, dance listeners use crappy radios, or whatever while they are in the garage or at work or whatever

Really have to disagree there. If anything, I have found that MOST listeners, irrespective of favorite genres, tend to be extremely ignorant about the implications their systems and settings actually have on music.

It never ceases to amaze me how often I go to a clients place, hear my mixes through their system, absolutely brutalized and horrid sounding either from underpowered speakers clipping from loudness, or those 'sound enhancers' that just cram harmonics up the arse.

Most of the time I don't even trust low and mid level engineers to know the implications of monitoring and acoustics, much less consumers. This skepticism is born of self-evidence, where I thought I knew more than I actually did throughout the years.

This is partly where my decision to avoid mixing for the lowest common denominator came in. If someone owns a system that can reproduce high fidelity audio in full range, then they deserve to hear the material make use of that spectrum. Why punish those who care only to make your work pop a little more for the guy listening to his radio on the way to work. Most people pay very little heed to audio fidelity, save the largeness of the low-end. Usually more bass = 'wow, more impressive'.