Reamping: How to get the amp to react like it's seeing a guitar?

[Darkening]

Hey guys.

I see you do a lot of reamping for metal around here. I'm hoping someone can help me out.

I've had good success with reamping clean guitars, but I haven't been satisfied with distorted guitars. When I plug the guitar into the head, it sounds louder and requires less gain to sound heavy and distorted. But when I use the RedEye recording tool on full volume, it isn't as loud as the guitar itself. The guitar has Emg 81s and the DI tracks in the sequencer are peaking around -2 or -3.

Is it the RedEye that doesn't have enough gain to match the Emgs? Does the ReAmp have more gain so it can sound like Emgs?

What does Andy Sneap do when he reamps Emg guitar tracks? Where do the DI tracks peak and what device(s) does he use to reamp them?

I can't get the reamp'd tracks to sound as mean as when the guitar is plugged in. I have had lots of great recording tones with the guitar plugged into a head, and the cab in another room of the studio, tracking it traditionally. I thought reamping sounded the same as playing the guitar into the amp. Is reamping distorted guitar tracks a last resort?

 

[JeffTD]

Post the rest of your setup. I just reamped some EMG DI tracks with my Redeye today.

 

[Torniojaws]

Is reamping distorted guitar tracks a last resort?

From the amount of "HEY!" it gets here, I would say it's the primary resort

 

[CJWall]

From the amount of "HEY!" it gets here, I would say it's the primary resort

haha, for sure.

any project I mix now I request DI's be taken at all costs, haha.

 

[Gnash]

Yeah I've got, oh maybe, 100 di tracks on a song up there now.

 

[Omega_Void]

First thing is to double-check that you aren't reducing the level at your soundcard's input or output.
Since the RedEye is passive it can't provide higher output level than your soundcard puts out.

 

[Mood Bender]

check to ensure the internal Redeye level switch is set correctly.

 

[Mutant]

Reamp box to di box and back to your daw.
Match levels with the original di track.
Problem solved !

 

[Darkening]

Alright, thanks everybody! I'll put what I did step-by-step and maybe someone can point out where I'm going wrong.

Post the rest of your setup. I just reamped some EMG DI tracks with my Redeye today.

Step 1:
ESP with Emg 81s > Redeye > 003 into Pro Tools
(redeye splits the signal) > Dual Rectifier

Step 2:
I turn up the preamp on the 003 so in Pro Tools the clean DI track peaks about -3 dB on the meter.

Step 3:
I record the DI at the same time as I record the amp mic'd with an Audix i5. The splitter on the RedEye doesn't change the tone at all compared to plugging directly in. The recorded amp track sounds just like it would if my guitar was plugged directly in to the amp.

Step 4:
I connect the output 8 on the 003 to the mic level in on the RedEye with a Canare XLR to TRS cable and route the DI track to output 8 in Pro Tools. I use the ground lift switch on the RedEye because there is hum. RedEye is switched to reamp mode, and the volume knob on the RedEye is all the way up.

Step 5:
I arm a new track for record, solo it & the DI track and starting recording. The DI track goes out to the amp and gets recorded back into Pro Tools on the new track. The amp settings are exactly the same as before (when I tracked the DI) but there is a lack of gain. It sounds like med to med-hi output pickups. I mean, it's close, but definitely lower ouput than when my guitar goes straight into the amp.

Omega_Void: First thing is to double-check that you aren't reducing the level at your soundcard's input or output.
Since the RedEye is passive it can't provide higher output level than your soundcard puts out.

How would I check that? When I record the DI the level is about -3 dB, which is as high as I can go without getting some clipping going on. When I send the DI track back out to the amp for reamping, the DI track is still about -3 dB in Pro Tools. I tried raising the fader, and I could hear a difference and it started to sound more distorted, but I was totally clipping the DI track to do that. The hardware levels for the inputs/outputs on the 003 is set to +4.

Mood Bender: check to ensure the internal Redeye level switch is set correctly.

That occured to me, but I just assumed it was on the high volume setting. I haven't changed it since I bought it. What do you use to push the switch? Is it low-level if it's pushed in?

Mutant: Reamp box to di box and back to your daw.
Match levels with the original di track.

What do you mean match levels? Turn up the preamp on the 003? I don't think I can use the RedEye as a reamp and DI at the same time.

 

[sparkyness]

Correct. Mutant's level reamp > DI > DAW test only works with separate DI/Reamp units. He's basically suggesting that you do a loopback test of sorts by running the signal from the reamp box back into the DI so you can check to see if the level is dropping somewhere in the chain by comparing the level of the original DI against the loopback'ed DI. As you've got an all-in-one unit, I don't think that will work.

Here's another theory: I initially had a similar problem with my ProRMP unit which is also passive like the little labs unit. The output signal from the reamp box wasn't hitting the amp at the same level as it did when plugging the guitar directly into the amp. The problem ended up being related to the pan-law setting in my Fireface unit when reamping a mono track. It is separate to the pan law setting in my DAW application (Nuendo) and had to be adjusted in the totalmix software for the Fireface unit. I'm not familiar with 003's if there's a similar setting to control the pan-law outside of the unit? I'd check your output settings too to be +4db.

 

[Mood Bender]

my Redeye works correctly at -10dBV with the Internal switch out

 

[Mutant]

Mutant's level reamp > DI > DAW test only works with separate DI/Reamp units. He's basically suggesting that you do a loopback test of sorts by running the signal from the reamp box back into the DI so you can check to see if the level is dropping somewhere in the chain by comparing the level of the original DI against the loopback'ed DI. As you've got an all-in-one unit, I don't think that will work.

Right.

It is a good idea to have separate boxes for di capturing and reamping.

With separate boxes you can go like this:

di > preamp > daw > reamp > amp

(Without any splitting).

With all things connected this way during the recording phase, you can monitor the exact signal that will go to your amp later while reamping.

 

[Darkening]

Here's another theory: I initially had a similar problem with my ProRMP unit which is also passive like the little labs unit. The output signal from the reamp box wasn't hitting the amp at the same level as it did when plugging the guitar directly into the amp. The problem ended up being related to the pan-law setting in my Fireface unit when reamping a mono track. It is separate to the pan law setting in my DAW application (Nuendo) and had to be adjusted in the totalmix software for the Fireface unit. I'm not familiar with 003's if there's a similar setting to control the pan-law outside of the unit? I'd check your output settings too to be +4db.

ProTools doesn't let you change the pan-law settings anywhere, it's Center Down -2.5 dB. The DI track is mono and 0% center. Would panning the track hard right or hard left give me an extra 2.5 dB of gain without clipping? I don't really understand how the pan laws work. Does it mean that a track peaking at -3 in PT on a mono track 0% center is actually being output at -5.5 even though the track is showing -3?

The inputs & outputs are all set to +4 dB, although Mood Bender says reamping works fine for him at -10 dB? I thought you wanted a line-level signal going to the reamp device? Isn't +4 line-level and -10 unbalanced?

Mood Bender: my Redeye works correctly at -10dBV with the Internal switch out

I will have to check the internal switch to see what it is set to. This might just be my problem. I just thought because it seems to get *pretty close* to the normal guitar volume, that it was on the loud setting. What do you use to stick in there? I can't even see a switch inside there.

Mutant:

With separate boxes you can go like this:

di > preamp > daw > reamp > amp

(Without any splitting).

With all things connected this way during the recording phase, you can monitor the exact signal that will go to your amp later while reamping.

This is a good idea. Will there be a lot of latency, though? I had a thought: I could plug the guitar directly into the 003 (instead of using the RedEye DI) and use the RedEye just for reamping. If I did this, I would be able to do what you're saying, right Mutant?

I thought maybe this is what people were using the overdrive pedals for. OD808, TS-9, etc. to get the extra boost before the amp. Or would a clean volume boost pedal do it for me? I was looking at the Keeley Katana Boost. It uses a 9v and boosts that to 18v in a transparent clean pedal.

 

[Mood Bender]

I have a very thin plastic stick, but I find that's a bitch so I just removed the cover.

 

[Mutant]

This is a good idea. Will there be a lot of latency, though?

I don't know much about your interface, but i can set my E-mu 1212M to 2 ms for overall input to output latency of 4 ms - an equivalent of 4 more feet of distance from your speaker cabinet.

I had a thought: I could plug the guitar directly into the 003 (instead of using the RedEye DI) and use the RedEye just for reamping. If I did this, I would be able to do what you're saying, right Mutant?

Check the 003 input impedance.
I provided a mathematical formula for calculating loss of signal in the other reamp thread.

 

[Darkening]

I don't know much about your interface, but i can set my E-mu 1212M to 2 ms for overall input to output latency of 4 ms - an equivalent of 4 more feet of distance from your speaker cabinet.

I can use Low-Latency monitoring for near-zero latency, as long as I am not using any plugins, aux tracks, or sends to do this. So, I could theoretically have almost zero latency, I think.

Check the 003 input impedance.
I provided a mathematical formula for calculating loss of signal in the other reamp thread.

The 003 specs: > 300 Kohm

The 002 specs: 1 Mohm

I have a 002 from before I got this 003. Are the DI's way better on the 002 than the 003 judging from these specs?

What's weird is the 003 has dedicated DI inputs for instruments, while the 002 shares them with channels 1-4, but the 002 still has a better input impedance.

I'm going to check out that link... thanks.

Edit: I read the linked thread....

So I would be better off (more signal captured) if I used the 002 DI input (1 Mohm) than the RedEye (? ohm) or the 003 (>300Kohm)?!

 

[Mutant]

The 002 specs: 1 Mohm

1 Mohm is the most common DI box input impedance.

 

[Mutant]

So I would be better off (more signal captured) if I used the 002 DI input than the RedEye or the 003?!

The quality of AD converters play a big role.

 

[Mood Bender]

why not use the Redeye as intended...

you can drive the amp and capture the DI (mic level) at the same time?

 

[Darkening]

1 Mohm is the most common DI box input impedance. The quality of AD converters play a big role.

Assuming the converters were the same, the 002 would be much better?

I thought 300 Kohm was really low for a DI and 1 Mohm was the minimum you wanted to use?

why not use the Redeye as intended...

you can drive the amp and capture the DI (mic level) at the same time?

It can't do that because both functions share the same transformer. It's one or the either, switchable on the front of the unit.