reamping - issues, questions, again!!!

A

alexrookie

Member
Mar 13, 2004
168
0
16
45
hanover,germany
hi folks,

i checked my radial reamping kit and have some issues with it.

here's the story:

tracked two guitars with the j48 - one passive and one active guitar.
what i mentioned was that i had so much gain coming from the di box into my preamp that i had to pad the di and even then the gain on the preamp was set at nearly zero (the active guitar was even zero).

chain was: ibanez with passive pickups - j48 - rane ms 1b - delta 1010
- through to amp

and jackson with active pickups - j48 - rane ms 1b - delta 1010
- through to amp


ok, what bothered me was that i had to pad the di box, cause i don't like pad buttons - i always feel like thay are stealing some tone or something.
but without the pad the signal was way too hot!!

the di tracks sound ok, dry and no distortion is heard - except for the active one, maybe just a bit dist on it, but quite subtle (well ,it was the lowest setting i could make for the active guitar).

first part is done, the di's are recorded - now questions to you guys:


why is the signal so hot?
is the preamp too hot? - i just did it with the ms 1b cause it is new and i heard good things about it - next time i'll try another preamp

is this a known issue with the rane? last time i did drums, i miked a snare with an oktava mk012 with the -10 dB pad into the rane - hard hitting drummer, gain set at zero on the rane - signal too hot for the converter!!!
changed the preamp into sp vtb1 - everything was fine!!



part number two: reamping !!

i soloed the recorded di track panned hard left to the output where my x-amp is and listened to the guitar sound.
what i expected was the same sound coming out of the amp as with the direct guitar signal - same mike position, same preamp, nothing's touched, just hit record.
comparing the original recorded guitar track and the reamped one with the exact same settings: less gain and bite, some loss of the highs!!!!!!! :erk:

didn't touch the fader in the daw, cranked the gain on the x-amp - no clipping light occurred.:Smug:

normalized the di track - same routing - still no clipping in the x-amp and still
less gain and tone compared to the original track! :puke:


chain: logic 5.5 - delta1010 - x-amp - guitar amp - same mike/pre setup like
the orig recording


what went wrong??

i don't have a big hum or anything else that is strange sounding, just not enough gain for the amp i guess.


do you guys have had any clippings in the x-amp, so that you had to pull down the gain knob?


ins and outs in the delta 1010 are set to +4 dB.
recording at 24 bit 44.100 khz

need help on this!!!

cheers,

alex
 
alexrookie said:

part number two: reamping !!

i soloed the recorded di track panned hard left to the output where my x-amp is and listened to the guitar sound.
what i expected was the same sound coming out of the amp as with the direct guitar signal - same mike position, same preamp, nothing's touched, just hit record.
comparing the original recorded guitar track and the reamped one with the exact same settings: less gain and bite, some loss of the highs!!!!!!! :erk:

didn't touch the fader in the daw, cranked the gain on the x-amp - no clipping light occurred.:Smug:

normalized the di track - same routing - still no clipping in the x-amp and still
less gain and tone compared to the original track! :puke:


chain: logic 5.5 - delta1010 - x-amp - guitar amp - same mike/pre setup like
the orig recording


what went wrong??

i don't have a big hum or anything else that is strange sounding, just not enough gain for the amp i guess.


do you guys have had any clippings in the x-amp, so that you had to pull down the gain knob?


ins and outs in the delta 1010 are set to +4 dB.
recording at 24 bit 44.100 khz

need help on this!!!

cheers,

alex
Click to expand...

I can't help you with it all, but I use the X-amp for reamping and here is what I do, right or wrong, it seems to work:

I record my DI track to a MONO track

I play the DI track before reamping to check the Level and set the Fader so that the loudest peak in the track is as close to Zero as I can

I do not Pan the output

I have the X-Amp Volume pot at MAX.



To test/compare Level's, I have plugged the guitar directly into the amp, played the riff and monitored the Input from the mic in the DAW and then reamped the track and adjusted the Fader to get a similar Input in the DAW. I have also reamped the DI back into my Interface and compared the Level in the DAW to what the Level was when recording the DI. That is too time consuming and the fader was usually set within a db or 2 of 0. So as mentioned I now just set the Fader as close to 0 as possible on the highest peak (which may make the amp see a signal a little hotter than the guitar plugged straight in).

By doing things this way, I am confident that whether I reamp or plug straight in, the results are too close to distinguish between.

As I said, this is just the way I do it, right or wrong.

AFAIK the clipping led on the X-amp relates to the Input level, not the output, so the X-amp's Gain pot will not affect this. (I might be wrong with this though, I can't find the manual to check :lol: )
 
hey hack,

thanks for your response.

the clipping led on the x-amp is for the input, that's right - but i don't get it to clip - so the gain knob has no function for me and that's why i think i have too less gain coming out of the converter straight to the x-amp.

the panning i do is essential for the output routing.
a mono di track panned hard left and routed to a output stereo pair, so that only the left channel is working.
i don't see anything wrong in the routing.

so, you have more signal out of the x-amp than from a direct guitar?
gain knop full open, no clipping, right?
 
have you tried setting up a mono output just for the DI to come out of into the X-Amp?

I don't see why you're using a stereo out for a mono signal and panning it. Depending on your pan laws, this could be part of your problem. Or else, you're not recording your DIs correctly.
 
ok, i think i can create mono outputs, i'll try it this way.
but the control pannel of my soundcard shows a lot of signal going out of the output i've chosen.

anyway - thanks for the tip, i'll give it a try!!!
 
Hi There,

most of my problems with reamping are caused by a lack of overtones. They're a crucial factor in every guitarsound and especially for the high-gain stuff. (Even those above 20 kHz cause audible soundchanges on an amp.) If you lose too much of them - and that's hard to tell by listening to the clean DI-signal - your distortion may sound flabby, even with maximum gain.

This is why amp-simulation-plugs like Guitarrig or Amplitube sound even worse when you decrease their internal resolution to save CPU-power.

Saving overtones is a hard task for a DI-box (I never used the J48, so I can't tell about it), I was distressed by my equip until I went for a Palmer Triline (just for signal-splitting) - it's a major difference!
The next problem is AD-conversion, since it cuts overtones by it's nature. Your Delta1010 should be fine.
I record all reamp-tracks in 88.2 kHz - I even convert 44.1 DI-tracks to 88.2 before sending them back into an amp (everything else I do is 44.1).
I also tried my Aphex-Exciter in an reamping setup - but found it a little bit tricky.

Long speech short: try higher sample-rates.
(Sadly, a lot of converters will give you more overtones, but they will sound quite harsh...)

Hope you get a killer-sound!
PS: Use high-end cable!
 
Thank you very much for asking this question, alex, as I have been in the EXACT same situation for the last two weeks since my Countryman Type 85 and my X-Amp arrived. And it's stressing me out.

Using a Digi001 audio interface and Cubase 2.1, as well as trying it with my Pro Tools LE 6.4 software with same results.

I've recorded to a mono track, had to pad the input on the Digi because the DI signal was too hot and when reamping I couldn't get the same output level as from the guitar itself. Recorded DI waveforms looked strange too, way higher peaks in the upper part. I've tried every routing option I could imagine (Mono to mono output, mono to stereo output hardpanned... no difference in level here!).
I couldn't get the clipping light on the X-Amp to light up at all, even with raising the fader way up.
I also get a little hum (while having the X-Amp level at MAX), which leads me to believe that the input signal isn't hot enough and therefore my signal to noise ratio is pretty bad.

I then went to a studio nearby where some friends of mine work, we tried out their Focusrite Saffire for capturing the DI signal. Seemed to work better (waveforms look more even, sound clearer, and it sounds better reamped). However it's still "close but no cigar".
We used balanced cables and also tested the cables I used at the studio.

I'm hesitant to invest more money into a Saffire interface or something as long as I'm not sure whether this is the main problem. The preamps are definitely better in this one than the Digi001 preamps, but I'd still like to know why this doesn't seem to work as well as with others who use the X-amp all the time (e.g. OzNimbus).

By the way, we also tried the instrument inputs of the Saffire for capturing the DI signal, the waveforms looked the other way round: Higher peaks in the lower part of the waveform. They had a definite loss of high end compared to the DI tracks recorded with the Countryman Type 85 and Saffire preamps.

So, the question remains: Why do we have to pad the inputs? Why can't we get the same output level and nice tone as from a guitar?
 
I use the input pad on my J48 all the time & have never had a problem. As for the X-Amp, good luck clipping it. It's got so much headroom, it's damn near impossible. Besides, that's the last place you want to add clipping. To me, anyway, the level control on it works just like a guitar's volume knob.



If you're stuck, PM me & send me a short dry MONO track & I'll try to help you thru it.

-0z-
 
hi @ all,

thanks for steping in and trying to help me out.

some things i haven't mentioned:

the cables are quality ones with goldenjacks - i really paid attention to this, believe me - the last thing i wanted for the chain was a loss of anything coming from the cables or jacks - this is really good stuff and the length is as short as possible - and yeah the signal is symetric - out of the delta 1010 into the x-amp.

i sent a recorded di track to oz and he reamped it and the tone is killer!!! - thanks man:headbang:

as for the clipping led in the x-amp - i don't want the box to clip i just want to see it once, so i can be sure, that my signal path is correct.
this damn light never appeared, although i have pushed all faders all the way up, my converters clipped - but this box :loco: - no clipping!!!

that seems quite strange to me, but maybe it speaks for its quality and headroom, like oz mentioned.

but i wonder, how some you guys say, that you have more gain going to the amp with the x-amp/reamp/orwhatever than with a guitar direct.
this is definately not my case and 'horseman' is in the same situation.


please make this clear for me:

can you have the same amount of gain coming out of the reamp device as connecting a guitar direct???????


my answer is - no, i can't !!!


btw, the more i played and experimented with reamping, the better results i got - it just doesn't react like there is a guitar plugged direct to the amp.

do you guys use tubescreamers in front of the amp to push it a bit harder? - cause this would equal the loss in gain by reamping - but would color the tone as well, right ??!!

and are the tubescreamers noisy? - do they produce hum?

i have never tested one, but i had a 'boss heavy metal' for the last days.
ridiculous little box - really noisy, i just used the level stage for a bit more gain and haven't touched the low, hi and dist knob.
especially the 'hi' knob was my favourite :lol: - i have never ever heard such a phasy, terrible guitar tone in my life!
 
alexrookie said:
as for the clipping led in the x-amp - i don't want the box to clip i just want to see it once, so i can be sure, that my signal path is correct.
this damn light never appeared, although i have pushed all faders all the way up, my converters clipped - but this box :loco: - no clipping!!!

that seems quite strange to me, but maybe it speaks for its quality and headroom, like oz mentioned.

but i wonder, how some you guys say, that you have more gain going to the amp with the x-amp/reamp/orwhatever than with a guitar direct.
this is definately not my case and 'horseman' is in the same situation.


please make this clear for me:

can you have the same amount of gain coming out of the reamp device as connecting a guitar direct???????


my answer is - no, i can't !!!


do you guys use tubescreamers in front of the amp to push it a bit harder? - cause this would equal the loss in gain by reamping - but would color the tone as well, right ??!!

and are the tubescreamers noisy? - do they produce hum?
Click to expand...



GuitarHack said:
...(which may make the amp see a signal a little hotter than the guitar plugged straight in)....
Click to expand...

I should have italisized the "MAY". It was an assumption based on a quick test, not a proven certainty.

The reason for this comment was based on getting a similar Input level (from the mic in front of the CAB) in the DAW with the guitar plugged into the amp playing the same guitar part compared to reamping a DI of the same guitar part (with the fader up close to zero). I got slightly higher Input in the DAW from the reamped DI than the guitar plugged in. This was more than likely (maybe, possibly, don't take it as definitely, literally or positively) caused by the differences in my playing.

Just now I have recorded a DI and noted the Input at the largest peak as -4.6. I have Reamped this DI (back into the same input used for the recording the DI with the Preamp gain set the same) with the Fader at 0 and the recorded track level was -12.3. So reamping a -4.6 resulted in a -12.3. I then set the Fader to 4.5, resulting in reamping a -0.1 and the recorded track level was now -7.8, EG -12.3+4.5= -7.8.

So the closest match between DI and REAMPED DI was -4.6 for the DI and -7.8 for the reamp without raising the Fader above 4.6 which resulted in an output of >0, clipped. If I recorded a DI as close to 0 as possible (-0.0), I could not get the Clip LED to light on the X-amp even with =6 on the Fader. The only way i could get it to light was if I purposefully recorded a clipped DI (PREAMP level high, clipping LED on the Firepod Input). When I reamped this, the X-amp Clip LED lit.

Here are 2 screenshots. First is the DI, second is the REAMPED DI with the Fader set on 4.5 (-0.1 on the output of the DI track). The First pic is with a Level of -4.6 on the DI track and the second is with a Level of -7.8 on the REAMPED DI.

So, long story short, there is a difference in level. The reamped track is slightly lower. Yes, I use an 808 and I like the level anywhere between 12 and 3 (o'clock), so it probably (maybe, possibly) makes no difference at all, since around 12 is where the Level is the same between the OD being ON or OFF, so 3 o'clock is probably bringing the Level up a bit. Don't sue me if I am wrong.

DI
http://sneapforum.CeltiaProductions.co.uk/GuitarHack/DI v REAMP/DI LEVEL.jpg

REAMPED DI
http://sneapforum.CeltiaProductions.co.uk/GuitarHack/DI v REAMP/REAMPED DI @4,5 on Fader.jpg

I hope that clears things up.
 
oz has already demonstrated to alex that the problem is not with his D.I. tracks... so screwing around with uselessly high sample rates and making a huge headache for yearself with that and some of the other out of the way suggestions here is a moot point. you're getting something wrong after the fact.
 
GuitarHack said:
I should have italisized the "MAY". It was an assumption based on a quick test, not a proven certainty.

The reason for this comment was based on getting a similar Input level (from the mic in front of the CAB) in the DAW with the guitar plugged into the amp playing the same guitar part compared to reamping a DI of the same guitar part (with the fader up close to zero). I got slightly higher Input in the DAW from the reamped DI than the guitar plugged in. This was more than likely (maybe, possibly, don't take it as definitely, literally or positively) caused by the differences in my playing.

Just now I have recorded a DI and noted the Input at the largest peak as -4.6. I have Reamped this DI (back into the same input used for the recording the DI with the Preamp gain set the same) with the Fader at 0 and the recorded track level was -12.3. So reamping a -4.6 resulted in a -12.3. I then set the Fader to 4.5, resulting in reamping a -0.1 and the recorded track level was now -7.8, EG -12.3+4.5= -7.8.

So the closest match between DI and REAMPED DI was -4.6 for the DI and -7.8 for the reamp without raising the Fader above 4.6 which resulted in an output of >0, clipped. If I recorded a DI as close to 0 as possible (-0.0), I could not get the Clip LED to light on the X-amp even with =6 on the Fader. The only way i could get it to light was if I purposefully recorded a clipped DI (PREAMP level high, clipping LED on the Firepod Input). When I reamped this, the X-amp Clip LED lit.

Here are 2 screenshots. First is the DI, second is the REAMPED DI with the Fader set on 4.5 (-0.1 on the output of the DI track). The First pic is with a Level of -4.6 on the DI track and the second is with a Level of -7.8 on the REAMPED DI.

So, long story short, there is a difference in level. The reamped track is slightly lower. Yes, I use an 808 and I like the level anywhere between 12 and 3 (o'clock), so it probably (maybe, possibly) makes no difference at all, since around 12 is where the Level is the same between the OD being ON or OFF, so 3 o'clock is probably bringing the Level up a bit. Don't sue me if I am wrong.

DI
http://sneapforum.CeltiaProductions.co.uk/GuitarHack/DI v REAMP/DI LEVEL.jpg

REAMPED DI
http://sneapforum.CeltiaProductions.co.uk/GuitarHack/DI v REAMP/REAMPED DI @4,5 on Fader.jpg

I hope that clears things up.
Click to expand...

hey hack,

thanks for you response, but if i understood your post correctly, you have rerecorded the di track dry - right??

that's not what i meant - but maybe shows the same loss in gain coming out of the converter.

i had a difference in gain going into the amp between the original guitar (through the di box) and the reamped guitar (through the x-amp).

i thought that the signal must (should)be the same, bit it's not - in my case!

and now i'd like to know, if you guys are in the same situation and everything is fine with my setup!!!!
 
alexrookie said:
hey hack,

thanks for you response, but if i understood your post correctly, you have rerecorded the di track dry - right??

that's not what i meant - but maybe shows the same loss in gain coming out of the converter.

i had a difference in gain going into the amp between the original guitar (through the di box) and the reamped guitar (through the x-amp).

i thought that the signal must (should)be the same, bit it's not - in my case!

and now i'd like to know, if you guys are in the same situation and everything is fine with my setup!!!!
Click to expand...

oz has already demonstrated to alex that the problem is not with his D.I. tracks... so screwing around with uselessly high sample rates and making a huge headache for yearself with that and some of the other out of the way suggestions here is a moot point. you're getting something wrong after the fact.
 
James Murphy said:
oz has already demonstrated to alex that the problem is not with his D.I. tracks... so screwing around with uselessly high sample rates and making a huge headache for yearself with that and some of the other out of the way suggestions here is a moot point. you're getting something wrong after the fact.
Click to expand...

aha,

you meant me!!

quite hard for me to understand you right sometimes - english is not what i speak or think everyday!

so, you mean that there must be something wrong after the di recording, right?

i get enough signal out of my converters - although my x-amp is not clipping when my faders are all up and the converters are clipping.

i don't have any hum or noise going from the x-amp to the amp - so what is wrong? or maybe there is nothing wrong - just different to a guitar connected to the amp?

james, do you get the same gain (or more) with your cunniberti compared to direct guitar?? or does it depend on the guitar connected to the amp?
sorry, i am not a guitarist!!
 
greyskull said:
ahem,,,, gold your cables may be, but are they balanced my young apprentice?
Click to expand...
the only balanced cable that should be used in a reamping situation is the XLR cable coming frofm the console/interface and into the input of the reamp.... all other cables, guitar cable and any patch cables between stomp boxes, should be normal instrument cable.
 
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