Replacing all toms with clean hits

abt

abt

BT
Aug 1, 2009
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Sydney, Australia
Who's completely replacing all Tom hits with clean samples? I don't mean samples from a different source or sample library, I mean clean sample hits from the same session.

I know that most will do manual strip silence between hits then replace the last hit if it needs it but I'm talking about replacing them all. I just did three Tom tracks with drumagog in about 10mins where it would normally take a few hours. There's a few spots that sound a bit unnatural, but those can easily be fixed by going back to the original takes.

Is anyone doing this?
 
NAH.

If the room isn't that exciting, I might add room samples instead of verb though. Dependsw on the style... OBV
 
I think I've probably misled you guys. It not about the sound or fixing a bad performance, it's more about saving time. They're tracked really well but they still need cleaning up. By the time I've strip silenced, replaced any of the last hits that have cymbals on them, they don't sound that different to the replaced version. The difference in time though is huge.
 
I like to replace all drums with clean samples taking at the start of the session, so do lots of people. No bleed allows for easier processing and the compression wont bring out all that bleed. I dont do this everytime but i cant think of a reason not to.
 
You could use a cheat that Andy posted sometime ago. If time is your concern
Send a copy of the triggered toms nudged back 10 Ms or so to the sidechain of a gate on the mics.
 
Clean samples on the last hit or particularly bad bleedy hits, totally. Fully replacing? Not as into that; I really hate sampling on toms.

I also know guys like Putney will sometimes overdub just the toms on tracks to get ultraclean, natural-ish sounding, hard hits everytime.
 
Sometimes, had to do it recently on a session where I used condensers on toms to had quite alot of bleed. Normally using dynamic's if the drummer is decent and has his kit setup well I find I can keep them all natural.
 
When it comes to real drums I’m very green. I know the answer was always going to be some do some don’t but things change. If everyone said they do it then through lack of experience I’d follow that lead.

Do you replace the last hit of each tom or just the last hit of the fill? Replacing the last hit in a fill is what I’ve been doing. This is sometimes sounds more unnatural than just replacing the entire fill, especially if you don’t have a clean hit that matches the tone because of the way the fill was played.

What about fills where there are cymbals on top? Do you replace those as well? I guess that’s what led me to replacing them all because I’d cleaned up the track and there were still a few cymbals that jumped out.

I’m not that into replacing them all – in theory – but after replacing three tom tracks in about 10min vs a few hours of manual editing I’m wondering if for the sake of my sanity I’d be better off just replacing them. If the result were different, then yes, but the replaced one sound pretty close to the original in most parts.
 
I think I've asked this before but don't recall really getting an answer:

What is the reasoning behind replacing the last tom hit of a fill?
 
bryan_kilco said:
I think I've asked this before but don't recall really getting an answer:

What is the reasoning behind replacing the last tom hit of a fill?
Click to expand...

You only replace it if there's a cymbal or other hit that's played over the ring out. That way when you EQ the toms you don't get a cymbal hit jumping out at the end of a fill.

Most fills have cymbal hit at the end.
 
abt said:
You only replace it if there's a cymbal or other hit that's played over the ring out. That way when you EQ the toms you don't get a cymbal hit jumping out at the end of a fill.

Most fills have cymbal hit at the end.
Click to expand...

But, what I don't understand is - why would the end of the fill be more important than the beginning? Assuming you mean something like

Kick+cymbal - tom - tom - tom - tom - tom - tom - kick+cymbal

Either the cymbal ringing would be MORE present in the beginning of the fill or your replaced last tom hit would cut off the bleed early and wouldn't that just sound weird?

Sorry if this sounds noobish, as I normally program drums and have only recorded live kits maybe 5 times in my life.
 
It's a good question, I don't know the answer. It's part of my question above, hopefully someone will clear it up for us.

I'm guessing the answer is that it's just as important but cymbal hits are less prevalent at the start of a fill, if it's a problem then you replace those as well.
 
@bryan: Think of drum:cymbal volume in the close mic. The attack of hitting the tom is WAY louder than the cymbal bleed, so you don't get a ton of it in the mix even after comping.

The decay of a tom, though, is quieter compared to the bleed, and compression is only going to bring that out.

@abt: I get what you're saying - I've actually had this come out on a couple projects where the fills were often just 1 or 2 hits per tom (4-piece kit dudes), and the OH/room tone on the attack is often enough to give real humanism to the part. When there are "cymbal over/between tom" parts, it's always been a case-by-case thing. Sometimes I do the whole thing, sometimes I keep the middle hits if I can, really just whatever ends up working best for the part.

Is your goal here to save the time of strip-silencing + last-hit replacement vs 100% replacing? If that's it, you could use the replaced track or a midi created track as a visual guide for quickly removing bleed, and then if you want to replace the last hit of a fill you've got a sample right there ready to drop in. I'd feel more 'right' about that than 100% replacement
 
I guess what I'm struggling with is the idea of completely replacing toms, which I don't like, vs the amount of time it take to clean them up, vs the actual result. Drumagog did such a good job at matching the dynamics it's hard to hear the difference between the original and the replaced version. Obviously they are cleaner, and some spots it is less natural, but by and large if it's sounding the same it's hard to justify the time spent on the manual process.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to convince myself either way, just your experience.
 
Im also a bit curious to this topic.

I've been replacing toms a good bit. For some reason I seem to have crazy amounts of bleed by the time my toms are at a level i want them to be. I'm using UA pres and 421s on toms so I know it shouldnt be bad, but i havn't found the reason as to why im having such a tough time with bleed.
 
i take sample of every kit i record, as i'm sure most do, i tend not to fully replace the toms any more, i'll clean up the recorded tracks, big low pass filter to get rid of as much cymbal stuff as i can, but keep the played tom tone in there, then use the sample for the attack/ high end of the toms, volume and velocity match as best i can by hand to retain the feel and mix a nice blend of both,

jeff nailed it, when the tail of the tom rings out there is usually another hit coming right after, so you either lose the tail, live with bleed, or use the samples
 
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