Sanctuary reforming?

[J-Man]

most good black and death metal came out post-80s so I think that makes 80s the weakest decade for metal by default

Good response. As someone who grew up in the 60's, 70's and 80's i got to see music go from 4 track recording to the massive masterpieces of today.

Yes the 80's was kinda weak on metal, but you got to remember, we were recovering from the 70's and Disco, so it had a hard time catching on here in the US. With the rise of metal in the 80's there was also the alternative sound, NEW WAVE. Metal was on the rise and then came grunge or the Seattle sound, which again pushed metal to the background, but thank good for the European bands, like Maiden, Helloween, Blind Guardian, Tarot, and others who kept it alive.

My two cents on the Nevermore remarks. Neveremore NuMetal? I don't think so, to me they are as progressive as they get, just alot heavier. Classifying them as nu metal is like saying Evergrey is Nu metal. just my opinion.

 

[drmetal8]

Yes the 80's was kinda weak on metal

You guys crack me up.

 

[dcowboys311]

i will give it to you on black metal considering it really wasn't a prominent genre at the time, so to even say it was around in the 80's isn't really true. Venom don't stack up to CoF now.

but no good death metal in the 80s? ok, sure most of the best stuff was technically released in 1990 and 1991, but to me that was still born in the late 80's. but i assume you would say the early stuff isn't as good as the later stuff? but i would argue that too.

Carcass, Entombed, Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Napalm Death, etc.

never said there was no good DM in the 80s...my favorite death metal album of all time is Altars of Madness and that came out in 89. Plus of course the other bands you mentioned. However, Left Hand Path didn't even come out until 1990, Heartwork and Necroticism were early 90s, Cause of Death and The End Complete, etc.

Just the sheer number of quality releases being released after the year 1990 trumps the 80s output.

 

[TribunalRecords]

I'll leave Reign in Blood out of the conversation, as I've never had any interest in what Slayer does and Reign in Blood wouldn't crack my Top 5,000.

Reign In Blood is possibly one of the most concise and aggressive speed metal albums ever. there is a reason why people still go to see they and do stupid stuff to their bodies because of this band. THIS album. buy hey, if you don't like speed metal then you wouldn't get it i am sure. which is understandable.

With regard to Operation, I would agree that it is in fact special, and that it is in fact the greatest disc of all-time. However, the decade that yielded the greatest disc, doesn't automatically become the greatest decade. The vast majority of the 80s, like any other decade, was filled with pure crap. For every Queensryche, there were 1,000 Jackyls, Firehouses and Brittany Foxes.

i like Firehouse and Britny Fox.

Nevermore - Dreaming Neon Black
Zero Hour - Towers of Avarice
Opeth - Still Life
Iced Earth - The Glorious Burden
Symphony X - The New Mythology Suite
Primordial - The Gathering Wilderness
Redemption - The Origins of Ruin

The Glorious Burden? Really? over Something Wicked This Way Comes? i don't even own TGB anymore i thought it was awful.

and Redemption isn't my thing at all. despite seeing them and everyone raving about them i just don't get it. most of the time i can see why people dig stuff even if i don't but, Redemption is not that case.

I would argue nearly everything in the 80s came about because the genre had corporate sponsorship. Musicians were making music more to become rock stars, than to create art. Do you honestly think that any of the guys in Slayer, Queensryche and Metallica would have been touring the U.S. in their late 30s, for $150 a week, just so their fans could hear the music? Nemtheanga shits more integrity than Metallica, Queensryche and Slayer have as a whole.

so, Metallica were looking for corporate sponsorship by NOT getting played on the radio? and NOT making a music video despite MTV being the most influential tool record labels had at the time?! really? i guess we can disagree on this as well. sure they wanted to be rock stars, anyone in a band who performs live wants to be a rock star. if they didn't then they would just be a studio project.

but the bands you mentioned playing for $150 a week in their 30's is irrelevant because they worked their asses off, wrote timeless music that has allowed them to not be in that exact scenario so why debate it? it didn't happen.

and to say that someone has more integrity because they get paid less is pretty hilarious. yes, the above mentioned bands i would say lost their integrity along the way for sure. but Metallica said they wouldn't make videos and they didn't for three albums despite cracking the top 20 on billboard with Master Of Puppets. so i guess you could say the integrity wall began to crack when they made the "One" video. but again, that video changed everything. so despite taking a step back, they were making a statement and attempting to stir things up.

but to me, they had integrity and who is to say that if you handed primordial the same Metallica success things wouldn't change for them?! we won't know until it happens, sure it's easy to slam Metallica and the like now, but they paved the way for metal to be where it is a today and i think some respect is deserved even if you don't like them. again, that is just me.

and yes, now these older bands charging $80 a ticket are corporate and greedy and do anything for a buck. which ties into my statement i made earlier about bands not being in it for the music.

 

[TribunalRecords]

never said there was no good DM in the 80s...my favorite death metal album of all time is Altars of Madness and that came out in 89. Plus of course the other bands you mentioned. However, Left Hand Path didn't even come out until 1990, Heartwork and Necroticism were early 90s, Cause of Death and The End Complete, etc.

Just the sheer number of quality releases being released after the year 1990 trumps the 80s output.

but again these bands were born in the 80's and released great albums right on the cusp. so it's debatable to me. it's 90's technically, but it's still 80's in a way to me. but bottom line is that the classics are far superior to what is coming out now. on this i am sure we agree.

by the way, did you pre-order the new INTEGRITY album yet? i just did the other day. just praying it's good and doesn't suck like the last 7"

 

[Metalmilitia2000]

Meshuggah actually uses 8 string guitars, thought I would clear that up.

 

[dcowboys311]

but bottom line is that the classics are far superior to what is coming out now. on this i am sure we agree.

Absolutely.

by the way, did you pre-order the new INTEGRITY album yet? i just did the other day. just praying it's good and doesn't suck like the last 7"

I've been meaning to but most of my vinyl money went to the Jane Doe represses that went up last month and for the new Ceremony and Gaslight Anthem...I probably will once I get back from Maryland Deathfest and see how much spare cash I have haha.

 

[General Zod]

Reign In Blood is possibly one of the most concise and aggressive speed metal albums ever.

You're certainly welcome to that opinion.

i like Firehouse and Britny Fox.

As always, to each their own. My point being, the decade wasn't filled to the brim with Operation: Mindcrimes.

The Glorious Burden? Really?

Yes. The trilogy that closes the disc is one of the greatest pieces of music in the genre. Again, everything with music is subjective.

so, Metallica were looking for corporate sponsorship by NOT getting played on the radio?

As I said, "nearly everything". "Nearly everything" suggests not everything.

but the bands you mentioned playing for $150 a week in their 30's is irrelevant because they worked their asses off, wrote timeless music that has allowed them to not be in that exact scenario so why debate it? it didn't happen.

The question remains... would they? Based on what we saw from these bands, I submit they would not have.

and to say that someone has more integrity because they get paid less is pretty hilarious.

Well, I'm glad I could bring some hilarity to your day. The world is a often a cruel, dark place. Anything I can do to brighten the day of my fellow ProgPower forum members brings me joy. None the less, if you're under the impression that modern day Metallica and Queensryche have integrity, than you've brought some hilarity to my day. If you're suggesting that they once upon a time had integrity, back when it was convenient for them to do so, than I would argue that having integrity is about doing so when it's inconvenient.

but to me, they had integrity and who is to say that if you handed primordial the same Metallica success things wouldn't change for them?

That's kind of a chicken and an egg thing. Did Metallica lose their integrity because they became popular? I would say, no. The Black album was written to gain popularity. It was an active act on their part. They drastically altered their sound, as soon as they tasted real commercial success with "One". To me, that suggests a lack of integrity. Suing their fans also suggests the same.

sure it's easy to slam Metallica and the like now, but they paved the way for metal to be where it is a today...

What did Metallica pave the way for? Did their Thrash releases open the doors for a million great Thrash bands? The success Metallica enjoyed began in full in 1991, as the genre was dying. Perhaps they've opened doors for touring partners like Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, Kid Rock, Korn, Avenged Sevenfold, Bullet for My Valentine, etc.

and i think some respect is deserved even if you don't like them. again, that is just me.

That is you... not me. They're a band who wrote two great discs, sold out and sued their fans. If you respect that... cool. I don't.

 

[Narcosynthesys68]

They're a band who wrote two great discs, sold out and sued their fans. If you respect that... cool. I don't.

That is the most concise point that has ever been written about Metallica!

 

[General Zod]

That is the most concise point that has ever been written about Metallica!

What can I say? In my mind, if you need more than a dozen words to sum up a thirty year career, you're being unnecessarily long winded.

 

[Jasonic]

WOW! I never realized one statement would generate 3 pages of replies!

I never specifically stated that Nevermore are a nu metal band.

I am just saying that there is a lot of modern sound to Nevermore, and the use of "chug" on occasion is one example.

Zod said it best. Music is subjective.
Furthermore, if you like it.....like it! Who giveth a crap what genre it is.

I still hold firm about my feelings on the timing of releasing this information.
Why else would you release it at the same time press is going out for your new album?

 

[AngraRULES]

Let's see what we learned from the old, wise folk in the last page...

- Nevermore is nu-metal.
- If you play with a 7-string guitar, you're definitely a nu-metal band.
- Nevermore and most modern metal bands have no heart and are purely based on fake performances.
- The best death metal albums came out in the 80s. Actually, the best metal albums came out in the 80s, period. Therefore it feels good to be stuck in the 80s in 2010.
- Metallica and Queensryche still have musical integrity.
- If you don't belong to the 80s metal scene or don't appreciate the 80s metal bands, you're less of a metalhead than those who are.
- Music taste is not subjective. It's pretty clear: Your taste is right if you like old school metal.

If this is what becoming older does to your mind, then I need a cyanide pill now before I turn 30.

 

[TheGraveDigger]

Wow, I am a bit late in the replies here. I am excited about the Sanctuary reunion. I have the first album but never heard the second. I may soon seek out that 2 in 1 that was released earlier this year. As far as Nevermore goes I feel they are one of the best metal bands in the whole world and can do no wrong. As far as Nevermore sounding like nu-metal, I have a friend who was strictly into nu metal and he has recently made it to the traditional side of the fence leaving the rest behind. The first time he heard Nevermore which was on the Voyager DVD he actually said to me that it reminds him a little of Korn just with guitar solos and a bit heavier. I never listened to Korn so I cannot agree or disagree I just know that I love Nevermore and they are in my top 10 bands along side the likes of Iron Maiden, Blind Guardian, Overkill, Testament, Helloween, Judas Priest, Whitesnake, Edguy and Savatage.

 

[ICEDEARTHFAN]

Let's see what we learned from the old, wise folk in the last page...

- Nevermore is nu-metal.
- If you play with a 7-string guitar, you're definitely a nu-metal band.
- Nevermore and most modern metal bands have no heart and are purely based on fake performances.
- The best death metal albums came out in the 80s. Actually, the best metal albums came out in the 80s, period. Therefore it feels good to be stuck in the 80s in 2010.
- Metallica and Queensryche still have musical integrity.
- If you don't belong to the 80s metal scene or don't appreciate the 80s metal bands, you're less of a metalhead than those who are.
- Music taste is not subjective. It's pretty clear: Your taste is right if you like old school metal.

If this is what becoming older does to your mind, then I need a cyanide pill now before I turn 30.

I'm 32 and the 80's will always be my fave when it comes to metal.But it's because of the reason Zod gave of it being the music of my youth,not because I think everything else is beneath it.Clearly,this discussion is subjective and in each person's mind,we are all right.I guess there really is no wrong answer.For the record,I love both Sanctuary and Nevermore.Why argue about who's better when we can have both?

 

[AngraRULES]

The first time he heard Nevermore which was on the Voyager DVD he actually said to me that it reminds him a little of Korn just with guitar solos and a bit heavier. I never listened to Korn so I cannot agree or disagree I just know that I love Nevermore and they are in my top 10 bands along side the likes of Iron Maiden, Blind Guardian, Overkill, Testament, Helloween, Judas Priest, Whitesnake, Edguy and Savatage.

Let's compare a recent release by Korn with Nevermore's. Here's Korn's:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSJXle3LP_Q&a=U7MDHR6M-fs&playnext_from=ML[/ame]

And now Nevermore's:



Thoughts?

 

[TribunalRecords]

The question remains... would they? Based on what we saw from these bands, I submit they would not have.

and again, judging someone from their current behavior from the perspective of what they would have done in the past is irrelevant.

None the less, if you're under the impression that modern day Metallica and Queensryche have integrity, than you've brought some hilarity to my day. If you're suggesting that they once upon a time had integrity, back when it was convenient for them to do so, than I would argue that having integrity is about doing so when it's inconvenient.

i didn't say they have integrity now, not at all. but i believe most bands start out with some sort of integrity in the honesty that they create their music and along the way their values are corrupted.

That's kind of a chicken and an egg thing. Did Metallica lose their integrity because they became popular? I would say, no. The Black album was written to gain popularity. It was an active act on their part. They drastically altered their sound, as soon as they tasted real commercial success with "One". To me, that suggests a lack of integrity. Suing their fans also suggests the same.

that is what i said, Metallica lost their way. it ended when they did a video for one going against their stand. but that video was 7 minutes long and challenged MTV's format. the only real metallica albums are the first 4 albums in my book. the black album is the beginning of when they sold out.

What did Metallica pave the way for? Did their Thrash releases open the doors for a million great Thrash bands? The success Metallica enjoyed began in full in 1991, as the genre was dying. Perhaps they've opened doors for touring partners like Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, Kid Rock, Korn, Avenged Sevenfold, Bullet for My Valentine, etc.

again, really? their album cracked the top 20 on billboard without radio airplay, without videos?! and this is froma time when records were selling in the millions regularly to make it on the charts. that is pretty substantial for the time and they pretty much brought an extreme version of metal to the next level and to a wider audience. it's like Dimmu Borgir breaking into the top 10 now i would say (and not in Europe).

They're a band who wrote two great discs, sold out and sued their fans. If you respect that... cool. I don't.

i give them 4 albums.

also, to single out and blame Metallica for suing their fans is a cop out. yes, lars handled it poorly but he was speaking for all musicians and just didn't do it well. i am a musician and i own a record label. i f*cking hate people who steal music just as much as he does, but he had the platform to say something and did it poorly. as i have always said, the music industry had the wrong spokesperson back then.

i will defend any band that is worth it regardless if i like them or not now. metallica were an important band in the history of heavy metal. if you guys can't see it, and are tainted because of them selling out or suing their fans then i cannot help you at this point.

 

[AngraRULES]

I'm 32 and the 80's will always be my fave when it comes to metal.But it's because of the reason Zod gave of it being the music of my youth,not because I think everything else is beneath it.Clearly,this discussion is subjective and in each person's mind,we are all right.I guess there really is no wrong answer.For the record,I love both Sanctuary and Nevermore.Why argue about who's better when we can have both?

But there's nothing wrong in that being your favorite. I'm 25 and I like plenty of stuff that came in the 80s, but to completely disregard everything else or consider everything else inferior 95% JUST BECAUSE it's not the 80s is just not rational. Of course it's subjective, but when someone considers themselves better than you just because you like something different, it makes them look like idiots.

And I agree with your last comment about having both bands. However, it seems to me that the main argument in the thread shifted from the Nevermore x Sanctuary thing.

 

[nomisofsiman]

but the bands you mentioned playing for $150 a week in their 30's is irrelevant because they worked their asses off, wrote timeless music that has allowed them to not be in that exact scenario so why debate it? it didn't happen.

and to say that someone has more integrity because they get paid less is pretty hilarious.

b

That wasn't the point Zod was making. Of course, just the fact of getting paid less doesn't make you a better musician. However, if you are getting shit pay, can hardly live off of it but are doing it anyway simply for the love of the music, that's integrity. It's the starving artist thing. Are there bands that are doing it for the love of art that suck? Yes. Are there bands that are getting paid a shitload of money that are extremely talented? Yes. It's a fine line but I think there are a lot of bands that got a lucky break early in their career that would not have continued if they continued to get shit pay. Nowadays that's pretty common due to the way the music industry is going.

 

[nomisofsiman]

However, the decade that yielded the greatest disc, doesn't automatically become the greatest decade. The vast majority of the 80s, like any other decade, was filled with pure crap. For every Queensryche, there were 1,000 Jackyls, Firehouses and Brittany Foxes.

This and I will raise you that a lot of these albums and bands started genres. That's a big reason why a lot of those albums are considered some of the best to be honest, much like a lot of people in metal also consider the original Sabbath albums the best in metal. When you start a genre that no one has heard before, it's very hard to top it, and the longer said genre is around the harder it is to push the envelop.

Another reason I find the 80s not necessarily the better decade is quite simply in terms of the metal came out, there was not a whole lot of diversity. You had NWOBHM and you had thrash. Also, you had doom to a lesser extent as it never was exactly popular. Not so much NWOBHM but I would say thrash in general was TOO populated in the 80s. When I've gone digging into older metal, a lot of the old thrash bands sound the same let's be honest.

I do think there are just as good albums that have come out since, but I'm not going to name albums because that whole naming the best albums in the 90s and 00s to the 80s or even 70s is VERY subjective. As I believe someone else pointed out too is you can't really judge the timelessness of something until time has passed, like 10-20 years at least.

I would argue nearly everything in the 80s came about because the genre had corporate sponsorship. Musicians were making music more to become rock stars, than to create art. And I would argue that being relegated to using the internet to reach the underground has more nobility than getting the word out on David Letterman. Please see the the thread Glenn posted on Primordial. Do you honestly think that any of the guys in Slayer, Queensryche and Metallica would have been touring the U.S. in their late 30s, for $150 a week, just so their fans could hear the music? Nemtheanga shits more integrity than Metallica, Queensryche and Slayer have as a whole.

Also this. I'm very big on bands in the 80s even though I obviously didn't listen to them in the 80s, but I wouldn't necessarily say it had the best. Like Zod, a lot of the reason is due to things like sponsorship. I also would say that in the 80s music labels, mtv, etc. pushed bands into the public eye a LOT more than they do now. Just because something garners more interest, doesn't always make it better. I'd also have to agree with Zod in that nowadays more bands do it for the art rather than the moolah. Can you really say that about a lot of 80s bands? There were some don't get me wrong, but it's a very small number.

WOW! I never realized one statement would generate 3 pages of replies!

I never specifically stated that Nevermore are a nu metal band.

I am just saying that there is a lot of modern sound to Nevermore, and the use of "chug" on occasion is one example.

I don't think you meant that Nevermore was nu metal, but I disagree that the chug = nu metal. As far as this statement goes though, so you think to have a modern sound you have a nu metal influence? Huh? I don't know if you've realized but nu metal has pretty much hit rock bottom, outside of only Disturbed, Korn and Slipknot and you could say Korn really aren't that popular anymore either. In my opinion I think sounding modern nowadays tends to do more with production values than anything else.

 

[ICEDEARTHFAN]

But there's nothing wrong in that being your favorite. I'm 25 and I like plenty of stuff that came in the 80s, but to completely disregard everything else or consider everything else inferior 95% JUST BECAUSE it's not the 80s is just not rational. Of course it's subjective, but when someone considers themselves better than you just because you like something different, it makes them look like idiots.

And I agree with your last comment about having both bands. However, it seems to me that the main argument in the thread shifted from the Nevermore x Sanctuary thing.

I completely agree with you on all this.Some of my comments were not actually meant at things you said,but what others have said.I quoted you initially because of the age thing you brought up.As for the argument moving forward past Nevermore and Sanctuary,I knew it had.But I thought I'd throw that in their since Glenn gets mad if we don't keep it on the initial thread heading