Savage 120 vs Peavey 6505

[Fragle]

ok, actually back on topic
i NEVER really understood all the talk about the engl blackmore basically being a better 5150. those two amps aren't similar AT ALL to my ears.
the 5150 NEVER is thin, harsh yes, if dialed in wrong, but not thin. the engl on the other hand always had a very bright sound no matter how low i had the treble set - don'T even talk about the presence, i kept it off all the time.
i also keep hearing comments about the blackmore having 5150 style midrange punch - BS. i had them here side by side for a few days. in order to keep up with the 5150's mids set around noon, the engl had to have the mids CRANKED, and even then something was missing, definitely a different frequency range that's covered here.
the most noticable thing about the both amps however is the bottom end. the blackmore (and therefore the savage) isn't anywhere close to fire/powerball style bass levels. the 5150 is. when i still had my blackmore i used to have the bass almost cranked, just like i do with my marshall. the marshall actually has more bottom end punch, let alone the 5150.
sorry for always bringing up the blackmore here but thats the amp i used to own, and iirc it's basically a stripped down savage 120, so there should be SOME degree of similarity.
i really had high hopes for the engl, with all the internet talk being that it's basically a modern hotrodded marshall - exactly what i'm after. i hate to say that this isn't even true in the slightest.

marshall: not a lot of bottom end, but tight, LOTS of mids no matter how you set the mid EQ , bright and smooth highs largely depending on the choice of tubes. not a lot of gain usually
reference - anything 80s

engl: also very tight, but kinda short on the bottom end, SCOOPED sounding no matter what even with the mid boost = contour engaged, bright sizzly highs. i think this amp would sound great if it packed more midrange punch.
maybe an EQ in the loop would help this amp a great deal
reference - mh...severed savior, hate eternal, although they use engl racks or powerballs.

peavey: now we're talking about hotrodded marshall sounds....it can do the whole death metal thing straight out of the box VERY well, but also thrash metal - why do you think andy sneap used it for the latest kreator disc?
lotsa lows on tap, although not as tight as the engl or the marshall (nowhere near rectifier levels of flub of course ), can get pretty scooped but also very midrange rich, close to a marshall but not quite as honky - i bet v30 or other midrangey speakers would push it right there, also sizzly highs that can be tamed somewhat without going into the extremes with the EQ settings.
reference - kreator: enemy of god, as well as the whole swedish thing, also the haunted

 

[006]

I have never heard anyone say that an Engl is supposedly a "hotrodded Marshall". I own a PowerBall and it doesn't sound like any other amp to me, it's got it's very own sound. The sound isn't so much "thin" as it is just really freakin' clear, lol. The low-end is there, I don't know why you would say that the 5150 has "more", as I own that amp as well and no....

My Dual Rectifier has the most low-end out of all my amps, I mean this amp is *known* for it's low-end. My PowerBall comes in second to the Recto. Then my Mesa Mark IV. Then it's the 5150, then the two Marshall heads. I dunno man, I just can't get my 5150 to blare that "kick-you-in-the-nuts" tightness for the low-end when I'm using my 7-string tuned to A standard. My PowerBall delivers for that though.

I dunno, it's all arguable and based only on personal opinion and taste. So really you can just ignore anything I said.

~006

 

[Fragle]

nono, it's all cool.
i was refering to the blackmore being dubbed as the hotrodded marshall style engl. check out blackmore related posts over at john petrucci's forum, as well as HCAF. the powerball obviously is a totally different beast - but as i said, i wanted to use one for a show, and it was a total letdown....messed with it for like one hour, and then went back to my marshall
surely the PB has a lot more punch than the blackmore, so agree with you on that issue.
however, as for the clear vs. thin thing....i stand by my opinion. yeah, it's clear, but it's the only amp i know that sacrifices any thickness whatsoever in order to get that clarity.
regarding the low end...i can't believe you'd rate the 5150 like a marshall as far as bottom end is concerned. my 5150 has so my lows it's not even funny. at high volumes, i usually have both the bass and resonance at noon, maybe 1:00 MAX. any more than that and it gets totally overpowering for my tastes. and that's with a booster in front of the amp, which again cuts some of those lows!
strangely, i used to own a mesa DC5 which is *SOMEWHAT* similar to a mark IV mixed with a dual recto (definitely got its own thing going on though), and that amp did nothing for me at high volumes kinda nice in the bedroom, with a killer clean and most of all LEAD sound, but the rhythm just got all fizzy at stage volumes. but the reason why i'm bringing this up right now is that it was NOWHERE CLOSE to the balls of my jcm800, let alone the 5150

part of the reason why we might disagree on that issue is that you're using 7 strings tuned way down. i pretty much always play in D...i have a 7 string that's tuned to Bb but just for home use - nevermore and cannibal corpse jam along thingys keeping the bass tight when using 7strings is much more difficult, because most people don't realize how much natural lows the low tuning is giving you in the first place. when using my 7 string i always find myself cutting way back on the bass in order to keep it from dominating my sound.

 

[006]

I haven't finished reading your post yet, but before I forget my words, I'm going to type as I read.

First off, my bad, I must've missed the Blackmore comment, I thought you were referring to Engl in general. Point taken.

Secondly, I didn't mean that the 5150 and the Marshalls were equal. I meant to say Recto, PowerBall, Mark IV, 5150, and then at the bottom of the list were the Marshalls I own. The 5150 has substantially more low-end than any Marshall I've EVER heard, played, or owned, and thats a ton. However, it doesn't match to the PowerBall in terms of low-end available on tap. At least, tight low-end anyway. The 5150 has never been a low-end freak to me like the Recto or PowerBall...I just can't make it do it, no matter if I set the Bass and Res on "11", it still doesn't compete with the PowerBall and Recto for the low-end.

I own a JCM800 2203, my Mark IV smokes it for low-end and thickness for rhythms. Just chunky in all the right places.

I don't always use a 7-string tuned down. For the most part, I'm a 6-er. I own like 20 6-strings, lol. I just bought a 7-string a few months ago when I was going through my Meshuggah phase, and I tuned it down to A standard. I was just trying to say that when I plug it into my PowerBall, and have it set a la Meshuggah's style of tone...it's fucking brutal. The low-end is so tight and punchy, and everything is so crystal clear and smooth. The 5150 just can't do that same thing, it's got too many mids, even at zero...not a bad thing, I mean that's the 5150's schtick, and it's cool. But for the sound I want it doesn't cut the mustard...not even close...to my PowerBall for that rediculously tight low-end. The 5150 is just too warm for that. Start-stop low-tuned riffs like Meshuggah does don't have the same sporadic tight sound on the 5150. Broken down like this:

When I play the stuff on my PowerBall, it's like "BAM BITCH!"

When I play the stuff on my 5150, it's like "hey, here I am."

I'm not denying the 5150 is a great amp, I own one and love the shit out of it. But when a band comes in that needs that tight as shit low-end, I stick them on the PBall right off the bat. I may blend in a 5150 track or two to give it some warmth, but I have to gate the hell out of it to get it to match the tightness. Not to mention compress some mids to kill a tad of that warmess as well.

All said and done, I will admit that I have only found the PowerBall to excel over others for single note riffing, like Meshuggah/Tesseract/Periphery does. It's not too great for the other styles. Although I have gotten it to sound great on a blues-rock style tone setting.

~006

 

[Hexer]

I gave the Blackmore a bit of a test in a store with my standard-tuned 7-string. it wasnt really completely my thing, but I can see a pretty cool Thrash-rythm-sound coming out of it. didnt test it very long though

 

[Fragle]

"but I can see a pretty cool Thrash-rythm-sound coming out of it"
well that's more than i could get out of it.....you know that the whole thrash rhythm thing is exactly what i'm all about

006, ok yeah, i think i got your point now. seems like we've just got totally different opinions of what good tone is. i like my tone warm, midrange rich, and thick, whereas you seem to be after a more "brutal" tone. my ideal tone is somewhere along the lines of exodus-tempo of the damned, iced earth - alive in athens, and early zakk wylde tone all rolled into one, with a touch of that elusive john sykes singing lead tone. totally different from any of the modern meshuggah and similar tone.
don't get me wrong, i like that super grinding and extremely punchy cannibal corpse tone pat o'brien 's getting out of his triple recto rig. i think it sounds AMAZING. it's just not what i can use for my style of music, otherwise i'd likely have a comparable rig.
i can definitely see where your midrange comment comes from. that's what i love about the 5150 in contrast to the engl i had, the midrange punch. at first i scooped the mids out on my 5150 because it does indeed have a good bit of mids, but i quickly got lost in the mix as soon as the other dude started firing up his marshall rig. nowadays i boost the mids a great deal and that's where the fun starts.
bottom line is that you think the 5150 is warm, in contrast to the tight clarity of the engl. i agree with that, i just happen to prefer warmth over that sterile almost solid state-ish ENGL sound. no offense hexer

 

[Hexer]

no offense taken

as I said before: "good" tone is a highly subjective thing anyway! I know we have different ideas of the sound we want to get

damn, I really hope we can get a complete lineup again soon (doing some tryouts this weekend) so I can dial in my modded Powerball for the band!!!

 

[Fragle]

so, what positions are still empty?

 

[Catastrophy]

Thanx for all the info guys!!
But which cab works best with these amps?
I think i'm gonna buy a 2x12, i'm on a budget

 

[jani78]

I have ENGL Savage 120 and ENGL Standard cabinet (with V60 celestions). The sound is amazingly smooth. I'm using EMG-81 and SD JB-4 pickups. I used to have Marshall 1960AV cabinet with V30 elements but V60s works better. Not so much middle; lot of bass if needed. Treble is smooth, not grainy or bitter.

 

[Hexer]

there are the ENGL 212s of course. even a lot of people who dont like the ENGL amps DO like the cabs very much.
other very popular choices (especially for americans ) are Bogner, Mesa, and the GenzBenz G-Flex.
then of course there's marshall

Fragle: currently we dont have a drummer and bassist, its just the 2 of us guitarplayers/vocalists though we thought about a bit of keyboard-experimenting and stuff like that, too.