Should Eugenics Make People Superior to Yourself?

Norsemaiden

barbarian
Dec 12, 2005
1,903
6
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Britain
How threatened are you by the prospect of the people of the future being genetically superior to yourself?
Do you find this idea threatening, appealing or impossible (since you may be someone who considers themselves to be perfect)?
 
life is short, so I'm not concerned at all for myself. If I was a parent I might be concerned about what some coming generation might be born into competition with though.

(don't have a clue what you mean about "since you consider that you are perfect")

Technology and education seems to have more near-future potential for any concerns about a widening gap of inequality though (memory pills, cyborg implants, the whole nano-revolution...). However pretty or packed with genetic potential someone is manufactured to be, well maybe they'll become a good athlete, or musician, or a scientist, but so what... even if things got to a eugenics level, people having such rights and capitalizing on them, it would be many generations I think before it was viable for the average person, and then that the average person would even feel compelled to conform to it to make sure they don't end up with a comparatively 'slow' pathetic child because finally so many people have done this that it actually does anything to alter the culture and career opportunities for everyone else...

I'm too mortal to be that future-minded; I simply don't care, just as people at the beginning of the industrial revolution weren't bothering themselves with greenhouse extinction possibilities which would never be able to bother them. I'm happy to deal with the local/social/political/religious problems I face today, which threaten my own future, and leave the people of the future generations to face their own problems. There just isn't time to concern ourselves with everything, and I personally think it more efficient, satisfying, effective, and practical to neglect many things so that we have the hope of actually finishing the few we do start.
 
How threatened are you by the prospect of the people of the future being genetically superior to yourself?
Do you find this idea threatening, appealing or impossible - since you consider that you are perfect?
I don't consider myself perfect. People have always been genetically superior to their ancestors. Evolution today does not contribute to much physical change as mental and this will continue to multiply exponentially. It is of course, not entirely a great thing to have around. One having a higher IQ doesn't equate to that person being able to make better decisions and have a good understanding of how clocks tick.. an area we've lost quite a bit in since a while. Nevertheless it is not threatening, appealing or impossible to me personally, since I consider it inevitable.
 
I have edited my first post to make my meaning clearer.

It's shocking that the opinion has been twice expressed so far that people are always superior to their ancestors!

We are no more superior to our distant ancestors now as a dog is to a wolf!

Is it not clear that a smaller, weaker,sicker and less intelligent individual is inferior to one who does not have these defects, all other aspects being equal?
 
Is it not clear that a smaller, weaker,sicker and less intelligent individual is inferior to one who does not have these defects, all other aspects being equal?

Evolution is not limited purely to genetics and physical bodies. What power we may have lost when compared as individuals in some primitive earth, is as nothing compared to the power we have gained through knowledge and cooperation.

Why is individual physical strength such a sticking point for you? It's just not as relevant now...
 
I have edited my first post to make my meaning clearer.

It's shocking that the opinion has been twice expressed so far that people are always superior to their ancestors!

We are no more superior to our distant ancestors now as a dog is to a wolf!

Is it not clear that a smaller, weaker,sicker and less intelligent individual is inferior to one who does not have these defects, all other aspects being equal?

"Man as a species is not progressing. Higher types are indeed obtained, but they do not last. The level of the species is not raised."

"What surprises me most when I survey the broad destinies of man is that I always see before me the opposite of that which Darwin and his school see or want to see today: selection in favor of the stronger, better-constituted, and the progress of the species. Precisely the opposite is palpable: the elimination of the lucky strokes, the uselessness of the more highly developed types, the inevitable dominion of the average, even the sub-average types."

Friedrich Nietzsche - "The Will To Power" (In several curious, if prophetic "Anti-Darwin" aphorisms exploring the fragile nature of a natural heirarchy, etc.)
 
Evolution is not limited purely to genetics and physical bodies. What power we may have lost when compared as individuals in some primitive earth, is as nothing compared to the power we have gained through knowledge and cooperation.

Why is individual physical strength such a sticking point for you? It's just not as relevant now...

That is a fair point. But "knowledge" has its limits. If we grow more infirm and sickly(physically speaking) as a species, we risk getting to the point where we cannot "think" our way out of our predicament.(though I suppose it is conceivable we can technologically "outpace" our physical degeneration)
 
unlocked eh? are they reevaluating the 'why change the channel when you can ban any show you don't want to watch' principle of moderation?
 
I think we are already viewed as, "superior" to those before us. I think it's the hope of all who have children to have children that are a better versions of themselves. I don't find this threatening at all. It's a great thing, if anything.
 
I think we are already viewed as, "superior" to those before us. I think it's the hope of all who have children to have children that are a better versions of themselves. I don't find this threatening at all. It's a great thing, if anything.

Yes it should be the hope of everyone who has children to have offspring better than themselves. But few think in this way, that is specifically encouraged by Nietzsche in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" chapter on marriage and children.

Most people have children randomly and often by accident, without choosing a mate from a eugenic standpoint. Others are even jealous when their children are more successful than they are in some way.

How many here have parents who are determined to insist that they know better about everything? That suggests the parents don't like the idea of their own offspring being superior.

And I have heard of mothers who are jealous of their daughters for being prettier too!

If you seek children better than you are yourself, then you are a wonderful person. You are truly special. Don't put yourself down by considering yourself part of the crowd.
 
How threatened are you by the prospect of the people of the future being genetically superior to yourself?


Very. Considering that they will be sexless green things with long heads and pointy fingers, capable of communicating with beeps, whistles and telepathy, and drivers of very fast muscle ships with blinky lights.

That shit is scaary.
 
Norsemaiden, you said you were shocked when people said that they're superior to their ancestors, but think about it; we're taller, stronger, and live longer, regardless of what myths and legends you hear.

Anyhow, who cares? I don't honestly care what happens after I'm dead, and this stuff won't matter during my lifetime, so...who cares?

But...this whole thread seems vaguely creepy. Hitler was big on eugenics. I don't think people should consider genetics at all, ever, when choosing a mate (Except with really obvious stuff, like incest...).
 
I don't think people should consider genetics at all, ever, when choosing a mate.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious for you to expand on that sentiment with your reasoning for it. would you mind?


my personal view is if you want a boy, and you want him to be tall or strong or smart, why not genetically piss about if the science is at a stage where one can reliably do so... it's only going to make you a child you'll love even more than you would have loved whatever the lottery gave you. To me a sentiment like 'don't mess with nature' is like saying 'dont take vaccines'* because it's in our nature to die from tetnis infections and the like... I don't see why we shouldn't use our wisdom to improve ourselves after birth or before it.


*pretend, again, science is reliable in these concerns for sake of argument.
 
I concur with Seditious for the most part - but I do wonder whether fashioning society around an 'everything can be improved / fixed' perspective, leads to an inability to accept and enjoy current, unmodified, states... I think a balance between striving for improvement and accepting what we have is to be valued.
 
I'd be proud if I brought a smarter child into this world. It's not a matter of science, it's a matter of choosing the right partner to do such. The idea is always to improve.
 
I concur with Seditious for the most part - but I do wonder whether fashioning society around an 'everything can be improved / fixed' perspective, leads to an inability to accept and enjoy current, unmodified, states... I think a balance between striving for improvement and accepting what we have is to be valued.

my hope, going into such endeavors, is that they would ultimately lead to more self-acceptance, as there would be a lot less extremes in talents/looks/etc. within any such society which would give people a sense of expectations which are actually unrealistic for them to live up to. Undoubtedly Stephen Hawking's no Brad Pitt, and Brad Pitt will never be a Stephen Hawking, but they're able to accept 'I can't be good at everything', and I think that would transfer over, with a slight improvement. In that future, people can learn to accept 'well sure, some people are infinitely better than me, at -that-, but I don't need to feel bad about it, because it's not like I'm -nothing-' and they will, more than the average person now, have strengths of their own to be proud of, and learn to appreciate that, where as today there are ugly stupid hated annoying people everywhere, who, frankly, don't deserve to have as much self-esteem as they may have thanks to another's social or sexual poverty forcing them into welcoming such a person as better than nothing...

there is always a 'rich get richer' concern, and I think we'd be right to keep an eye on that, not at all because it's 'wrong' to do such things, or 'unfair' to others who miss out, but purely so that we don't end up with some form of cyborg racism against the inferior (frail, stupid, impulsive) lower-class community who's parents couldn't afford memory chips and creatine to enhance their child to skyrocket ahead in abilities... in other words, purely for pragmatic reasons.

Ultimately it would depend on someone's philosophy of values that their satisfaction with improvement and achievement rests, I don't think people would forever be dissatisfied with not being the best singer or hottest celebrity or smartest writer, there would be a level of comfort reached at which people can have the same lack of concern for the public opinion as many of us do now.

really, it seems it would be only in something like a communist culture rather than one like our own where people would be despised for not doing more when they're quite capable.

In summary, I think people could self-regulate any personal burden of the advances. There may be public opinion of a certain leaning, just as today we praise 'productive' people over the drug addict who enjoys himself, but there wouldn't be any significant peer pressure that would interrupt people's acceptance of their own life, having improved themselves to some level fit for an easy life; and it's only the threat of a greater division between 'they who excel' and 'they who merely survive' (and their own philosophical burden of their own worthlessness by comparison) which could be worsened; and while a society of 'the weak who don't accept their own weakness', where they could better themselves, would be a beautiful thing to inject into the idiot religious masses of today, upon people who have no hope of measuring up to a world of people more than just 'not extremely stupid', it could be dangerous.

I guess the question there comes is whether we should at all care about those people and their feelings, or accept that they're expendable and therefore no expense toward their betterment is necessary, and rather we can just better our surveillance to oppress any instinct toward crime fueled by their dissatisfaction with the life given them by the parents who chose, knowing perfectly well the world they'd be raising them in (---a hatred thus best directed at the parents for their selfishness really... but such people are never so sensible, are they).


There may be a lack of compassion in this (one I think philosophically deserved), but I think you and I agree, we don't at all need to talk about 'killing off a group of people' or something like that, merely negligence, the like the entire western world shows to every African, Indian, Chinese, etc. who is suffering poverty and sickness and all the rest today... so realistically, it seems, certainly not sinister like 'wipe out the Jews', but further, not even more heartless than the world we support today.
 
I'd be proud if I brought a smarter child into this world. It's not a matter of science, it's a matter of choosing the right partner to do such. The idea is always to improve.

suppose you, sir, are ugly, and not very smart, yourself: with the idea of actually improving the world, would it be better you restrain yourself from breeding, or simply regulate your breeding with the guidance of science?

After all, the main stock breeders aren't exactly the finest examples of humanity's peak, and I doubt they'd care to be refused the right to breed due to their unwillingness to aspire do a better job than mere happenstance does.
 
Europeans are much smaller and weaker than they were in ancient times. Archeological evidence shows that there were Celts in Britain who wore wrist torques that were as thick as a man's knee joint is nowadays.

Civilisation = domestication and that causes neoteny. Domesticated animals are smaller and weaker than their wild ancestors.

After wars the height of our populations have been depleated with the tallest and strongest men being taken out of the genepool.

There has been a short-lived blip in modern history where, due to much improved nutrition (as well as the constant effect of sexual selection) people were a bit taller than their parents. This is now being reversed due to the fast degenerating physical quality and idiotic habits of the masses - as well as race mixing with smaller people and smaller races growing in number in countries where the taller indigenous people are making themselves extinct.

For example:
http://media.www.kentnewsnet.com/me....Longer.Tallest.People.In.World-2750128.shtml
Americans are getting shorter - and fatter and sicker and stupider

Though there are many reasons for the disparity in height, the Annals of Human Biology suggest the shift in growth trends might have something to do with the amount of junk food Americans consume in comparison to Europeans.

Jennifer Snyder, a marketing specialist at the University Health Center at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, agreed that the eating habits of Americans could have some effect on growth patterns.

"We (Americans) eat a lot more preservatives and additives (than Europeans), and the food is processed differently here," Snyder said.

Another reason why Americans are on average shorter than Europeans could be the result of more pollution in the air, Snyder said.

Although Americans as a whole are getting shorter, some are looking for ways to combat shortness.

Tallness isn't something given by a God or supernatural force - it is a genetically coded trait.