Should Mexican Immigrants Be Allowed Into The U.S Freely

[Alter]

Read my post above your post ahead of the last one you posted. No fine is needed. Making them citizens is what is needed.

 

[Valerie]

Letting any old person from any old country freely become a citizen is the stupidest idea ever, because of the security issue. Yes everyone knows not all immigrants are criminals, but not all criminals have backgrounds to check.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Fining people who broke a law for the sole reason that they have no money is pretty harsh.

Fining people who have no money is a pretty pointless exercise to begin with, is it not?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Just got done discussing this topic with a friend of mine, and together we came up with a few ideas that don't seem to have been addressed yet.

1) Since (as Satanstoenail just pointed out) fining people with no money is pointless, it would be better to fine the employers of the illegal immigrants since they arguably have a moral responsibility to verify that their employees are legal, and since hiring illegals is an unfair method of cutting labor costs they pretty much owe the government money anyway. There's really no moral justification for punishing the illegal immigrants, since they're only doing what's necessary for their survival.

2) As long as the issue of population control remains unaddressed, we have to face the fact that there are probably not enough jobs for all the people in the world at present. With that in mind, if we open our borders to every single prospective immigrant who does not present a national security threat, we would only be saving lives inasmuch as we fill whatever remaining job openings there are in the U.S. Beyond that, we're only creating a situation where we disrupt the lives of people who already have jobs, which is immoral.

 

[cookiecutter]

Fining people who have no money is a pretty pointless exercise to begin with, is it not?

Well yeah

Letting any old person from any old country freely become a citizen is the stupidest idea ever, because of the security issue. Yes everyone knows not all immigrants are criminals, but not all criminals have backgrounds to check.

So you're saying that faced with a lack of evidence we should assume people are criminals, rather than assuming that they aren't?

 

[The Ozzman]

If there's a lack of evidence, do more searching

 

[rms]

Deporting all of them at once would just fuck things up. I agree with what others have said. Make the ones here legal, and make it easier for people who want to come here to come legally.

easier? how fucking hard is it to be a citizen!?

 

[The Ozzman]

easier? how fucking hard is it to be a citizen!?

The general requirements for administrative naturalization include:

*
a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States;
*
residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
*
an ability to read, write, and speak English;
*
a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government;
*
good moral character;
*
attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and,
*
favorable disposition toward the United States.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=96719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

 

[unknown]

1) Since (as Satanstoenail just pointed out) fining people with no money is pointless, it would be better to fine the employers of the illegal immigrants since they arguably have a moral responsibility to verify that their employees are legal, and since hiring illegals is an unfair method of cutting labor costs they pretty much owe the government money anyway. There's really no moral justification for punishing the illegal immigrants, since they're only doing what's necessary for their survival.

the only problem with this is sometimes illegal immigrants get their hands on some really stunning fake copies of paperwork to present to employers, and the employers can't tell the difference of whether or not it's a forgery because it looks so real.

 

[skeptik]

Illegal immigrants do have money. Sure, most of them don't have much, most likely, but they wouldn't be here if they found that they couldn't make any money here. It doesn't really matter why you broke a law 9,999 out of 10,000 times. A (minor) crime of desperation is still a crime, and should not simply be waved off as nothing. It also would not be fair to leave the illegal immigrants here now unpunished and then to crack down on future illegal immigrants. I see nothing with imposing a fine on these people for breaking the law and posing a threat the national security when what they get in return is a path to citizenship, and in that, a path to a much better life. There are so many different ways in which a fine could be employed that to suggest that it wouldn't work is kind of a cop-out. I mean, fuck, you can wait until they get a job and then create some kind of illegal immigrant tax to get the fine.

 

[AchrisK]

Not really, think about families being split apart, peoples lives being ruined, people dieing. It would be a mess that would be similar to the effects of the holocaust.

No. It would be similar of we went and got them and just killed them in brutal ways. That would be similar.

It's a ridiculous comparison.

This would be putting them back in their country, which they left illegally. Yes it would cause plenty of upheaval in the lives of many families, and it would put them back in the situation they were trying to escape, but it is in no way holocaust-like.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Illegal immigrant tax!

 

[skeptik]

It is in many ways holocaust-like. You mentioned some of the ways in which it is reminiscent of the Holocaust yourself, you silly bastard.

 

[AchrisK]

It is in many ways holocaust-like. You mentioned some of the ways in which it is reminiscent of the Holocaust yourself, you silly bastard.

I menationed only one potential similarity: Upheaval.

Upheaval in lives happens all over the world all the time to every person. It is not uniquely holocaust-like.

 

[AchrisK]

... I mean, fuck, you can wait until they get a job and then create some kind of illegal immigrant tax to get the fine.

Actually I think this is a good idea. Impose the fine and put them on whatever path is designed for them. If they cannot pay the fine immedeately, then their future LEGAL wages will be garnished at an appropriate level until the fine is payed. Paid? Is payed a word?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

the only problem with this is sometimes illegal immigrants get their hands on some really stunning fake copies of paperwork to present to employers, and the employers can't tell the difference of whether or not it's a forgery because it looks so real.

I think the point remains that employers have a responsibility to at least attempt to verify that their employees are legal. From my understanding, even that isn't happening (though I don't really know any statistics on the matter).

 

[The Ozzman]

I think the point remains that employers have a responsibility to at least attempt to verify that their employees are legal. From my understanding, even that isn't happening (though I don't really know any statistics on the matter).

Yeah, it costs money to do that. LOLZ LET'S CUT COSTS BY HIRING ILLEEGULS. I'm not sure it's legal to do that

 

[Zephyrus]

I think we're forgetting that it's nearly impossible to keep track of all these illegals working in this country. Threatening them with taxes and wage cuts isn't going to lure them out.

 

[skeptik]

The fine/tax is part of their pathway to legal residency and citizenship. I think that this is a perfectly acceptable solution. No plan will ever work 100%, so it's not worth trying to do so (i.e. hunting down and deporting 12 million people). I'm sure that many illegal immigrants would turn up for a pathway to citizenship sponsored through a government program even though it included a fine. They would have a better life and would most likely be making more money anyway.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I think illegal immigrants should be given a path to citizenship. They're here and if they aren't committing crimes they should be given the opportunity to be as free and productive as everyone else. As citizens they would all have to pay taxes and employers could not pay them so little. Paying illegal immigrants such low wages hurts both the workers and other citizens who are pushed out because they have to be paid more. You guys should also note that many illegal immigrants do pay taxes.

That said, I don't think there should be totally free immigration. That would be a security risk. I do think it should be made easier so that good people who just want more economic opportunity can come here and thrive.

America has a long history of shitting on its immigrants until there are so many that they can't do it anymore (see Italians, Irish etc.) I think we should take a more enlightened view now. How many of your relatives came from Europe? Why is Mexico any different?

Couldn't have been said better by anyone... They are different because they are not white Cookie... If Canadian illegals (white ones) were the ones doing it instead of Mexicans you wouldn't hear such a fuss about it or if more Europeans were the illegals (yes there are illegal Europeans in this country people) again there wouldn't be such a fuss.. actually there isn't a fuss about the white illegals in here...and it's not because their population is smaller... shitting on illegal immigrants has it's roots in racism whether people like to admit it or not... if all those illegal Mexicans never crossed the border illegally and got their green card and/or citizenship legally the issue right now would be we let in too many legal mexicans... so they are damn if they do and damned if they don't... and like you pointed out prejudice towards immigrants whether legal or illegal in this country has always been prevalent since the irish/italians/jews etc...