Signal strength help

[H-evolve]

Hi all,

I am having some problem with the strength of my guitar signal, when recording, plugged directly in my interface.

I plug my LTD with D-Activators directly in my Komplete Audio 6, and the DAW I use is Reaper. I use VST plugins such as LePou, Wall of Sound, and TSE Overdrive

First off, I turn the knob on the interface to get the signal as hot as possible, as recommended in this forum. (I have a red light indicator when the signal clips on the interface).

However, even if it doesn't clip on the interface, it does clip in Reaper. I need to lower the signal level knob on the interface by a good amount, for it to stop clipping. This is one thing I don't understand?

Also, when looking at the signal wave (within the DAW), I have a lot of fluctuation/dynamic effects. Some sections are very low strength, others are very high, on the verge of clipping (or clipping, as mentioned above). I assume this is because I am plugged directly in the interface, so with a clean sound from the pick-ups. I guess a clean sound, without distortion of any sort, will create a lot of dynamic effects (distortion being similar to compression), but I could be wrong? Why do I experience that?

So, do you guys have any explanations and/or recommendation?

That being said, I feel like my "simulated" tone is thin, especially the palm muted sections (where the signal wave gets very small) and I suspect that what I told above could be the reason. I have heard decent guitar tones with the free VSTs, so the problem comes from somewhere else.

Also, probably important note to add: I am not a strong picking guy. I emphasize on precision, not strength.


Thanks for the help.

 

[Kellii]

Does the Clipping within Reaper still happen when the VST's are disabled?

 

[H-evolve]

Does the Clipping within Reaper still happen when the VST's are disabled?

Very good question, and I am not 100% sure, I'll double-check. But, what I can say is:

There are two things that seem to happen:

1- The signal wave does clip on some open chords. As I said, I think that I play with a lot of "dynamics" in my picking. That is, my palm muting is not extremely powerful (unless I am doing a slow "chuggy" riff), while I tend to put the accent on open chords. Therefore, you can see the signal going from low, to clipping (you see the wave hitting the threshold).

2- The signal wave does not hit the threashold, but you see the clipping warning on the volume level. This seems to be caused by the VSTs. But as I said, I'll double-check.

I have seen people using some Input Limiter, in the Input FX of Reaper. Is this common practice?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but am I not suppose to have a wave that is quite strong even for palm muting sections? For sure I'll see fluctuation of the signal, but I do not think I am suppose to see levels going from very low to clipping, right?

 

[Terminus]

The signal should not be as hot as possible without clipping. It should be whatever your interface manufacturer says is optimal for getting a clear signal, which could be somewhere in the -10dbfs to -18dbfs range depending on the brand and model.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

First off, I turn the knob on the interface to get the signal as hot as possible, as recommended in this forum. (I have a red light indicator when the signal clips on the interface).

I have never seen anybody knowledgeable here recommend that, and we usually make fun of people who do. The advice everybody repeats is this: record your clean guitar DIs around -18db RMS/-6ish db peak. Adjust your input volume until you get there. Clipping is kind of pointless.

As for weird dynamics, download some raw guitar DI tracks. There are tons all over the internet. Listen and look at the waveforms and see if you still think yours are weird. And obviously make sure the issue isn't your pickup batteries or cable.

 

[Kellii]

I am not familiar with reaper but I think a limiter will just introduce more problems.

First of all if you're pluging your guitar straight into the interface it is likely a DI you are recording. The waveforms for DIs can look radically different depending on how you pick. If you pick hard and consistent the waveform will look more uniform. If it is not peaking on the interface it is probably fine.

Turn off all your VSTs and check if the DI is Clipping, if it is not then you are fine and the problem is a VST with the output too loud.

Activate each VST one at a time, then if a VST peaks turn that VST's output Down, repeat this for all VST's.

 

[H-evolve]

I have never seen anybody knowledgeable here recommend that, and we usually make fun of people who do. The advice everybody repeats is this: record your clean guitar DIs around -18db RMS/-6ish db peak. Adjust your input volume until you get there. Clipping is kind of pointless.

As for weird dynamics, download some raw guitar DI tracks. There are tons all over the internet. Listen and look at the waveforms and see if you still think yours are weird. And obviously make sure the issue isn't your pickup batteries or cable.

Sorry you are right, I am mixing things. I got that "hot" thing from a tutorial video that Misha from the band Periphery made on youtube.

I guess he was wrong, but I am pretty sure that is precisely what he said. I don't think I misunderstood what he meant. But then he's not a sound engineer either...

 

[H-evolve]

I am not familiar with reaper but I think a limiter will just introduce more problems.

First of all if you're pluging your guitar straight into the interface it is likely a DI you are recording. The waveforms for DIs can look radically different depending on how you pick. If you pick hard and consistent the waveform will look more uniform. If it is not peaking on the interface it is probably fine.

Turn off all your VSTs and check if the DI is Clipping, if it is not then you are fine and the problem is a VST with the output too loud.

Activate each VST one at a time, then if a VST peaks turn that VST's output Down, repeat this for all VST's.

Yes, as you point out, the DI signal does vary A LOT at the spots where I have put some accent in my picking, especially on open chords. I always thought that it was "OK" to accentuate some chords here and there, but seeing how the DI signal varies, perhaps I should be more consistant and just try to pick my open chords with the same force I pick the palm muted notes.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Sorry you are right, I am mixing things. I got that "hot" thing from a tutorial video that Misha from the band Periphery made on youtube.

I guess he was wrong, but I am pretty sure that is precisely what he said. I don't think I misunderstood what he meant. But then he's not a sound engineer either...

Yep, and we all made fun of him for it

 

[H-evolve]

Yep, and we all made fun of him for it

OK! haha! I'll take good note of that!

 

[Kellii]

...I have put some accent in my picking, especially on open chords. I always thought that it was "OK" to accentuate some chords here and there.

It is absolutely ok to do this, If it sounds good then do it. Before you change the way you pick though take off all VSTs and check to see if the DI is clipping . Otherwise you will change the way you pick and problems will still occur.

 

[H-evolve]

It is absolutely ok to do this, If it sounds good then do it. Before you change the way you pick though take off all VSTs and check to see if the DI is clipping . Otherwise you will change the way you pick and problems will still occur.

Yes thanks for your advice. I'll try tonight to turn everything off and let you know what I find out!

 

[greyskull]

I have never seen anybody knowledgeable here recommend that, and we usually make fun of people who do. The advice everybody repeats is this: record your clean guitar DIs around -18db RMS/-6ish db peak. Adjust your input volume until you get there. Clipping is kind of pointless.

As for weird dynamics, download some raw guitar DI tracks. There are tons all over the internet. Listen and look at the waveforms and see if you still think yours are weird. And obviously make sure the issue isn't your pickup batteries or cable.

Correct!

 

[H-evolve]

So, I checked yesterday and I had two separate problems, as I thought, following your suggestions.

First off, I had one location where the DI signal was clipping (No FX). As explained by you guys, I understand that DI signals tend to have high fluctuations, and that's one thing that happen then. At the end of the final riff, I hit the strings quite hard and the signal clipped.

Second, the output of Wall of Sound was probably too high. Well, that or the output of the Preamp LE456.

And that makes me think, I could have also reduced the output of the LePou preamp, it was also stopping the guitar tracks from being too loud in Reaper. Is it preferable to keep the LePou output level "relatively" high, and reduce the output of Wall of Sound (cabinet simulator)? Or is there no big difference in doing either of those? Or is it better to keep the output of WoS high and reduce the output of the LE456?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

So, I checked yesterday and I had two separate problems, as I thought, following your suggestions.

First off, I had one location where the DI signal was clipping (No FX). As explained by you guys, I understand that DI signals tend to have high fluctuations, and that's one thing that happen then. At the end of the final riff, I hit the strings quite hard and the signal clipped.

Second, the output of Wall of Sound was probably too high. Well, that or the output of the Preamp LE456.

And that makes me think, I could have also reduced the output of the LePou preamp, it was also stopping the guitar tracks from being too loud in Reaper. Is it preferable to keep the LePou output level "relatively" high, and reduce the output of Wall of Sound (cabinet simulator)? Or is there no big difference in doing either of those? Or is it better to keep the output of WoS high and reduce the output of the LE456?

Thanks again for your help.

The -18db RMS rule applies to guitar tones with FX too. Keep everything, after every plugin, at that level. So if this is your chain:

Guitar --> input --> Reaper --> LE456 --> Wall of Sound

Your clean DI should be -18db RMS, so adjust your input level until it gets there. Once in your DAW, turn off everything after LE456 and adjust LE456 so it hits -18 db RMS. Then turn on Wall of Sound and adjust it until it also hits -18 db RMS.

It may not matter, but what you're done is avoiding overloading plugins with a signal that's too loud, or giving plugins a signal that's too quiet.

 

[H-evolve]

The -18db RMS rule applies to guitar tones with FX too. Keep everything, after every plugin, at that level. So if this is your chain:

Guitar --> input --> Reaper --> LE456 --> Wall of Sound

Your clean DI should be -18db RMS, so adjust your input level until it gets there. Once in your DAW, turn off everything after LE456 and adjust LE456 so it hits -18 db RMS. Then turn on Wall of Sound and adjust it until it also hits -18 db RMS.

It may not matter, but what you're done is avoiding overloading plugins with a signal that's too loud, or giving plugins a signal that's too quiet.

Many thanks, I'll try following that rule.

Does the -18 db RMS rule also apply when micing a cabinet directly? I would assume so, but thought I'd ask. (asking for future reference, for whenever I'll be able to do that)

 

[Plendakor]

Yes mon homme. That's for headroom, especially if you're micing cause you can't go back to add headroom to the original file. Need some TêteChambre.

 

[guy in latvia]

This thought just occurred to me. How do you guys adjust DI level for lead guitars as legato runs can be so pathetically low (cant even been seen unless zoomed in on waveform) compared to hard picked notes which peak quite high? I've considered running lead guitars through my hardware 1176, is this a bad idea or not, because it seems to make everything a little more "balanced"?

 

[4Eyes]

I have Komplete Audio 6 and use Reaper - when I go directly to the interface I set gain knob on instrument input to level when I don't get any clipping in Reaper (clean signal path) when I play some things that produce highest peaks - big chords, pinch harmonics etc.. I don't get any clipping on the interface or in DAW that way

 

[H-evolve]

This thought just occurred to me. How do you guys adjust DI level for lead guitars as legato runs can be so pathetically low (cant even been seen unless zoomed in on waveform) compared to hard picked notes which peak quite high? I've considered running lead guitars through my hardware 1176, is this a bad idea or not, because it seems to make everything a little more "balanced"?

Though I am quite noob to recording, I wanted to point out the legato training that Ola showed on youtube, where you practice your legato strength using a noise gate. You know, just to practice making your legatos sound loud.

That being said, I am pretty sure you already knew about the importance of having a strong left hand (neck hand).

Apart from that, my first reflex was also to propose compression.