so I finally saw RotK this past weekend
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IanDork107
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Speaking of which, RotK was anti-Semitic because it did not go out of its way to portray a positive Jewish character.
mindspell
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Speaking of which, did you see the Mel Gibson interview with Diane Sawyer? He had a great explanation as to why his movie wasn't anti-semitic. Let's see if I can find it...
mindspell
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"Gibson insisted on Primetime he is no anti-Semite, and that anti-Semitism is "un-Christian" and a sin that "goes against the tenets of my faith."
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/Entertainment/mel_gibson_passion_040216-1.html
I'll see if I can find the transcription of the whole interview..
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/Entertainment/mel_gibson_passion_040216-1.html
I'll see if I can find the transcription of the whole interview..
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Well, just taking that clip you posted...he's right. Not that that's good "proof" of anything, as people go against their faith intentionally and unintentionally all the time.
FrostGiant
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I haven't seen rotk myself as of yet. I should go this week or something. And why shouldn't the passion of christ be antisemtic? I mean, it is a story about the Jews killing Jesus.
mindspell
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I honestly think that he is too much of a religious freak to be an anti-semite. He got the gospels out and made a movie from what they said, and fact remains that the Jews didn't look that great in the Passion, and that's why the movie is like that. The end product for christians is that Christ forgives his people and leaders so as bad as they look the message should be one of forgiveness and love (which I think the movie address, at least that's my understanding.
that's a good summation Mindspell.
anyhow, to really go into it you'd need to go into the history of bible and how it was put together taken in context of the times, etc. etc. It's pretty complicated and layered once you start digging and I don't think most people are open to that since there's a lot of stuff in there that isn't pretty and merits serious discussion. it probably should be more public knowledge, but a lot of it would probably also go straight over people's heads and/or just make them unnecessarily angry.
anyhoo, I'm very interested in seeing the movie and highly doubt the intelligence and motives of anyone crying "anti-semite!"
anyhow, to really go into it you'd need to go into the history of bible and how it was put together taken in context of the times, etc. etc. It's pretty complicated and layered once you start digging and I don't think most people are open to that since there's a lot of stuff in there that isn't pretty and merits serious discussion. it probably should be more public knowledge, but a lot of it would probably also go straight over people's heads and/or just make them unnecessarily angry.
anyhoo, I'm very interested in seeing the movie and highly doubt the intelligence and motives of anyone crying "anti-semite!"
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Well, I really believe Gibson would not be consciously anti-Semitic. But I know enough condescending, patronizing left-liberals to know that you can be involuntarily racist.
Nevertheless, from what I've read, the movie doesn't seem even involuntarily anti-Semitic. Do you have a link for the Ebert review?
Nevertheless, from what I've read, the movie doesn't seem even involuntarily anti-Semitic. Do you have a link for the Ebert review?
Baliset
guitar deity
i think you guys are missing the point totally. we shouldn't concern ourselves with whether or not the film is anti-semetic or not. we should be going to see this movie purely for the songs on the soundtrack by creed frontman scott stapp.
mindspell
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Absolutly, I am not that well versed and I have not had the chance to read other gospels than the 'Vatican II' ones so I couldn't tell you for sure. But you are talking about a faith-based movie, do that movie as an anthropological study and you would get a wholly different result. Look at how much crap The Last Temptation of Christ got because it proposed an alternative view to the official one. Faith is a complicated subject to deal with and you are sure to rough a few feathers in broadcasting yours.avi said:
As stupid as it sounds, look at Marilyn Manson, whose beliefs are pretty much in line with the liberal society we live in (or hope to live in, whatever you like)yet he gets blamed for everything but the presidential elections.
Well the different Jewish organizations around the world often cry anti-semitism for no reason all the time, and i think it makes them look bad and whiny. I always come back to an example that frightened me about a year and a half ago. Benjamin Netanyahu was supposed to do a conference in a Montreal university, but a protest got ugly, glass were broken, so on so forth. The conference was canceled. The next day I was listening to public radio and the journalist was doing a roundtable with the director of Jewish Studies for McGill University and the head of the Canadian Jewish Council. After a condemnation of the rise of anti-semitism in the world and a few, not very heated, discussions the two agreed that to be anti-zionist was to be anti-semite. This blew my mind, I just couldn't believe that two intelligent person could say that publicly and not be ashamed of it. Yet, nobody would ever challenge them publicly because now you would be really an anti-semite.
....
that sort of stuff happened out here too with a Netanyahu appearance at Berkeley. there's actually been a lot of serious drama between palestinian supporters and over-zealous Jewish students at SFSU, too. 95% of the time it's simply both sides being idiots and unable to see other points of view.
the release of "The Passion" could've sparked a very intelligent public discussion on religion and it's effect on history and so forth, but it'll never happen because it's such a loaded topic.
the release of "The Passion" could've sparked a very intelligent public discussion on religion and it's effect on history and so forth, but it'll never happen because it's such a loaded topic.
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Well, I think the conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is a very different thing than almost every other mistaken cry of anti-Semitism. Things like decrying "The Passion" (and AGAIN, because I'm loathe to defend something I haven't seen, I'll just say this is all "from what I've read") and (since I just saw Auto-Focus last night) the anger/criticism that accompanied the beginning of "Hogan's Heros" are pretty meritless. I think the general argument there is whether or not such oversensitivity is justified; I mean, in the 1950s, I'd have a hard time coming down hard on a Jewish organization worried about positive portrayals of Nazis.
Anti-Zionism, however, is rooted in anti-Semitism, and could not exist without the soil of anti-Semitism. That doesn't mean every anti-Zionist expression is anti-Semitic. But it's like a white good ol' boy police force in the old South. Most of you will string up (or at least legally send up the river) a Negro without a second thought. Maybe there are a couple of you who really try to overcome the instutitional and cultural racism you've grown up with, and do a generally good job. In the end, you know, the department did convict a lot of genuinely guilty black folks, but in the scope of history, it's hard to give much moral credence to those convictions, because you've effected them in such an impossibly inobjective atmosphere.
Sure, the anti-Zionist movement's excuse is that Israel HAS actually done bad things. But even the worst anti-Semitisms throughout history (represented by expulsions of Jews from Spain, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.) were not entirely based on fiction. The core of institutional anti-Semitism--including anti-Zionism--is the treatment of the crimes of Jews as worse than the crimes of everyone else, singling them out for special prosecution. And that is exactly--exactly--the anti-Zionist flaw. Israel's crimes are regularly focused on and called "worst ever" when every other state--including the Arab states around Israel, and Palestine itself--do equal or much worse.
(My personal opinion is that a lot of people have been fooled into calling themselves "anti-Zionist" without understanding exactly what that connotes. Because of Israel's militarism, I very strongly condemn a lot of its policies, probably equally to many who call themselves anti-Zionists, and I would never call myself an anti-Zionist)
Anti-Zionism, however, is rooted in anti-Semitism, and could not exist without the soil of anti-Semitism. That doesn't mean every anti-Zionist expression is anti-Semitic. But it's like a white good ol' boy police force in the old South. Most of you will string up (or at least legally send up the river) a Negro without a second thought. Maybe there are a couple of you who really try to overcome the instutitional and cultural racism you've grown up with, and do a generally good job. In the end, you know, the department did convict a lot of genuinely guilty black folks, but in the scope of history, it's hard to give much moral credence to those convictions, because you've effected them in such an impossibly inobjective atmosphere.
Sure, the anti-Zionist movement's excuse is that Israel HAS actually done bad things. But even the worst anti-Semitisms throughout history (represented by expulsions of Jews from Spain, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.) were not entirely based on fiction. The core of institutional anti-Semitism--including anti-Zionism--is the treatment of the crimes of Jews as worse than the crimes of everyone else, singling them out for special prosecution. And that is exactly--exactly--the anti-Zionist flaw. Israel's crimes are regularly focused on and called "worst ever" when every other state--including the Arab states around Israel, and Palestine itself--do equal or much worse.
(My personal opinion is that a lot of people have been fooled into calling themselves "anti-Zionist" without understanding exactly what that connotes. Because of Israel's militarism, I very strongly condemn a lot of its policies, probably equally to many who call themselves anti-Zionists, and I would never call myself an anti-Zionist)
mindspell
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We differ here because I would consider myself an anti-zionist for the simple reason that I disagree with the creation of the Nation of Israel, and that is not rooted in any anti-semitism because it was not really the jewish people who decided, the western leaders did, with the US, Canada and GB first in line. That, has nothing to do with the Israelite goverment policies (some of which I also disagree with but it is not the basis of my anti-zionist view). My understanding of Zionism is "the sovreignty of the Jewish state of Israel" and nothing else and as that I am anti-Zionist. I might be wrong in my use of the word though, correct me if I am wrong.
If anti-Zionism is rooted in anti-Semitism then how come Jewish people both in Israel and abroad call themselves anti-zionist, some them intellectuals and scholars? And how come liberal newspapers like haaretz clearly have some anti-zionist views from time to time? That doesn't compute in my head...
If anti-Zionism is rooted in anti-Semitism then how come Jewish people both in Israel and abroad call themselves anti-zionist, some them intellectuals and scholars? And how come liberal newspapers like haaretz clearly have some anti-zionist views from time to time? That doesn't compute in my head...
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Yeah, I wouldn't really label you an anti-Zionist if your sole opposition is to the creation of Israel in the method in which it was created--your post wasn't specific enough for me clearly see "anti-Zionist" or "not anti-Zionist" (there's a lot of grey areas). Zionism is a VERY generic term (purposely so, so a) a lot of people could call themselves Zionists, and b) so Jews could be criticized as radical and scary "Zionists" when they say ANYTHING remotely pro-"Israel not being razed and permanently forgotten")
Being Jewish doesn't mean you can't buy into anti-Semitism. The Judenrat in Nazi Germany were certainly enablers of institutionalized anti-Semitism, similar to black Confederate soldiers. And like I said, many people use anti-Zionism to mean a very narrow thing without realising the full connotations of the term.
Being Jewish doesn't mean you can't buy into anti-Semitism. The Judenrat in Nazi Germany were certainly enablers of institutionalized anti-Semitism, similar to black Confederate soldiers. And like I said, many people use anti-Zionism to mean a very narrow thing without realising the full connotations of the term.
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