stirring the pot some more

[luke]

Alright, where were we?

Ah, yes...
As you have recognized before we are bound by international law, and direct interference with China is not a real option. I think you will have a hard time denying that change is happening in China, and while it may not be fast enough for your liking, if we wish it to quicken we should keep our wits about us.
Contrary to your misinterpretation, I have yet to make a statement supporting the oppression of innocent people. I have said that we are incapable of changing the status quo by withholding the olympics.
If you are wondering why I posted all that not so positive information about China, it is because I believe you should be aware of the background of the subject you are debating. Since you have proven to be largely oblivious to the general state of affairs, I felt it expidient to fill you in, so that you may intelligently back up your statements.
In a post made a few days earlier I said I would not discuss my personal viewpoints on the politics regarding the issue. Maybe that was not a big enough hint for you to realize that I am not arguing my point out of passion, but from reason. I have made a valid attempt to consolidate my statements with examples and logic. You have criticized my posts, insinuating that someone would have to be stupid to agree with me, and then when I pointed out that you may bear a prejudice you jumped all over me crying foul play.
If you can show how denying China the olympics, or cutting them off would be practical and have a net positive outcome, and do so in a methodical, logical way, please feel free. If you can't, I suggest you let the discussion drop (I'm off on holidays after tomorrow, so you don't have long anyway) and maybe the next time I have the pleasure of discussing something with you, you will be more prepared to support your argument.

take it easy
luke

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by luke
Alright, where were we?
.....be more prepared to support your argument.

take it easy
luke

Right on then, cool. Now to get things back to the main idea...

I was under the impression that winning an olympic bid meant proving a given county was worthy of the honour, one of the (hopefully most important) criteria of which is the treatment of humans. For the IOC to disregard this is, I think, a great injustice.

In toronto we actually thought some stupid joke our idiot mayor said about africa would greatly hurt the canadian bid. Being the innocent folk that we are we just ASSUMED the IOC was as sensitive and intolerent of racism/prejudice as we are and would not look too kindly on this. Our mayor was even asked repeatedly to resign because of this dumb joke, which he didn't even mean to be racist, he was just dumb and insensitive and he apologized profusely for it and is probably still apologizing. That's canada.

That same week (about 5 or 6 weeks ago) a report came out that the chinese savages had tortured to death something like 15 women and 20 men over the previous days and weeks (for political agenda reasons I think it was, the reason for it was not made very clear in the articles I read). Being innocent canadians we were totally disgusted by this (like we think any human being would and should be) and assumed china wasn't even in the running anyway so it certainly couldn't tarnish their bid anymore than it was already blackened with evil hatefulness and the blood of countless tibetans for generations to come (genocide).

Members of the canadian olympic commity were so innocently naive that some said that this stupid joke had cost us the olympics, and we innocent candians thought it was a strong possibility. How much more stupid could we have been? Not only did the mayor's joke NOT hurt our bid, we could've fucking launched a few missles and completely wiped out a few african countries and tortured to death a few hundred americans and the IOC would not have so much as blinked or frowned.

See, we canadians are basically idiots cuz we aren't accostomed to our politics being quite so corrupt and heartless. Hell, we get upset when the gov't closes a hospital or fails to provide transport for disabled seniors or if there's too many pot holes in the roads. I guess that's how spoiled we are (I guess that's just part of living in this country, we take certain things for granted). The thought of the torturing of innocent people is just so far beyond our collective grasp that it doesn't even seem real to many of us that this is going on right now in china. We just assumed the IOC valued human life and were disgusted by pointless evil. We were so very very wrong. We didn't know that the delegates from the rest of the world were so lacking in ethics and conscience that they would even *consider* china, much less actually vote that way. Call us naive, but with the torture deaths of 35 or so people fresh in the papers, that's what we thought. We were also (wrongly) lead to believe by our media that one of the criteria for measuring a nation's olympic worthiness was their treatment of human life. Duh. Therefore, the shock that the olympics was going to cruel and murderous savages totally blew our collective minds, I think. Being pretty much sheltered and immune to the sick political evil that goes on elsewhere in the world, we are very very very sensitive to shit like this, maybe too sensitive, but I personally wouldn't have it any other way. Perhaps if I were from cuba I'd be more accepting of this injustice. But because I am an innocent and naive canadian it literally makes me ill and causes me to lose much faith in the worlds collective sense of ethics. I feel china winning the bid was sad day for earth overall and probably an indication of things to come and that makes me very very sad.

Barring all other reasons, factual, speculative, interpretive, or otherwise, I think they should not have gotten the olympics on this single principle alone. You seem to find many ways to go off on tangents (ie. it's good that the west gets a greater understanding, a few lucky chinese would benefit, canadians are nationalistic and almost as bad as china) while continually neglecting to respond to this original point which started it all. So I'm asking your opinion on this, which is neither right or wrong, it's simply your opinion.

If you say yes, they should be denied based on this principle, as should any savage, murderous gov't, then there's no point of continuing and I have faith in your sense of ethics.

If you feel they are worthy of the honour dispite their reign of terror on innocent people, then I do not have faith in your sense of ethics and I ask this second question: For you, what would a country actually have to do to be denied the olympics on principle alone? Would nuking the US be enough for you? Where do YOU draw the line? If china did indeed destroy much of the world or whatever, would you still argue that they should have this honour dispite their evil? In your opinion, how utterly fucking evil must they be before you would treat them any differently?

We already now how I feel, how do you feel? (trying to keep to question, neglecting all that other crap even including the monetary reward thing - no money, no helping/hindering evil, no flags sewn to back packs, just on principle alone).

Hopefully you get a chance to respond, have a good time! It's been fun!

Satori

 

[love]

keeping this brief

Am i always happy? no. I wasnt before i became a Christian either. I wasnt when i did whatever i wanted whenever i wanted. I wasnt when i said whatever i wanted to whoever i wanted without taking other people into consideration. Where did the idea come form that Christians were always happy happy happy?
When you say Gods looking over my shoulder i feel youre looking at it from a religious point of view. You dont have a desire for God. When you are filled with a desire for God it outweighs almost everything else in your life. This is why alot of people simply cant understand why someone would be a Christian. Desire. I dont see Gods Laws as a cage that keeps me from things i would rather be doing, i see Gods Law as a cage that keeps things that i despise away from me.

sorry to be so brief i know i didnt hit all your points by a long shot, gotta run
later
Love

 

[HoserHellspawn]

...and I return. I've been reading the whole way along and in light of luke's upcoming absence, I'll jump back in here and uphold his end of the debate, just for the hell of it.

I think with that last post, Satori, you're the one wandering off-topic. I seem to recall way way back the original debate being quite simply "should China have gotten the Olympics?" and along those lines, the ethics of you, me, or anyone else is largely irrelivant; you and luke both upheld that what you wanted was what was best for the people of China. The core of the argument is that you have a difference of opinion in how to best achieve this as it pertains to this recent event with the upcoming Olympics specifically.

Whether or not they should have gotten the Olympics based on principle is moot. It's plainly obvious that the IOC awarded the Olympics to China as opposed to Canada because of the possibility of greater overall positive change in China resulting therefrom, I've read that in multiple articles on the subject.

Is the Government of China a bunch of murderous savages? Okay, sure. For the point of this post in the debate let's grant that in it's entirely. There can be no doubt that China's record of human rights violations was the first and foremost thought in the minds of everybody aware of their getting the Olympic bid, the world spotlight is once again upon them. And, now, over the next SEVEN YEARS, every minor human rights issue that occurs in China is going to be front page news and worldwide, the granting of the Olympics will once again be called into debate.

What kind of power is wielded by that intense media coverage? If the purpose of government is to control the people and keep them complacent and if grotesque acts on the part of the Chinese government are made aware to the populous of the world on an EVEN MORE consistent basis, the political pressure exerted on China will be massive, stemming not simply from the politicians but from the people.

Who overthrows governments? Who ends regimes? Can the tyrrany of the communist government of China be brought down by external forces without the fear of a third world war? And better yet, can hosting the Olympics be a catalyst to political change? Let's look at history: Seoul, Korea, 1988. Prior to the granting of the Olympics, a military regime was in power that gave way in the face of the games to democratic elections. I'm not saying that altering the political makeup of China will be that simple or affected even remotely that dramatically, but it's a start. If you throw in the spreading of ideas into China from Hong Kong, the freedom of information now available by the internet to the admittedly small number of Chinese in industrialized cities, and the memory of past protests (i.e. Tiananmen Square) in addition to the obvious and visible social injustices, the seeds for reform are planted in the minds of the Chinese people, the only ones who can really enact that change.

Holding the Olympics in Toronto will aid the economy of the city and be a nice backdrop for an international sporting event, but holding them in Beijing may help, in some small way, change the world. Even if this is hopelessly naively optimistic, maybe granting the Olympics to China is, yes, even in principle, the right thing to do, too.

 

[Demiath]

Hoser: I think you could be right, but since you've read multiple articles on the subject, I'm sure you're also aware of that many of your arguments were used back in the 1930s when it was decided that the Olympic Games of 1936 would be in Berlin. Optimists argued that the massive media attention would "soften" the Third Reich dictatorship, but in reality the Olympic Games became something of a political victory for Hitler. Sure, there WAS a decrease in human rights violations during that period, but as soon as the international media's interest had started to fade somewhat, the situation for Germany's political and ethnic minorities only got worse.

There are of course several important differences between the nationalistic German regime 70 years ago and the "communistic" Chinese government today. All I'm saying is that there ARE certain similarities between the discussions in the 1930s and those people are having today about the Chinese OCs, and that we mustn't forget that.

 

[luke]

Originally posted by Satori


I'm asking your opinion on this, which is neither right or wrong, it's simply your opinion.

Hopefully you get a chance to respond, have a good time! It's been fun!

Satori

Beats the hell outta tv, doesn't it. I'm looking forward to coming back to another heated discussion....I hope you and Hoser have fun while I'm gone.

For my honest opinion....
On strictly humanitarian grounds, China hasn't been doing much to prove they are suitable hosts for the olympics.
In an overall sense, I guess I'd like to be optimistic.

I'm giving the keys to my apartment to a friend, and I've told her about this board. Not a metal head, but hopefully she'll get on here and light a fire under some asses. See if you can't talk her into listening to Opeth (I tried, but she wasn't keen on the death vocals).

take it easy
luke

 

[Orchid]

Guys, couldn't we like, uhm, change the subject?
I'd like to partake this thread but I have absolutely nothing to say about the Olympics or China, except for "Chinese food is good but Japanese is better."

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
...and I return..etc.. Even if this is hopelessly naively optimistic, maybe granting the Olympics to China is, yes, even in principle, the right thing to do, too.

Hey man, thanks for the info.

I'm glad to see that you are optimistic. I wish I could be but after reading about the horrors that the chinese gov't has been doing and just how completely corrupt the system is (even gov't members can be tortured/killed for anything other than strict compliance with their black intent) then I am of the opinion that they simply aren't human and cannot be reasoned with. Perhaps I am not at all politically correct in say this, but I think those evil bastards should be put down like rabid pitbulls.

I am hoping things will change now because of the olympics. But I have zero faith in their conscience. I tend to think that perhaps china will perform a few public service acts, maybe some people will be executed with the usual bullet to the head instead of being tortured to death, but if they did do this it would be purely for show and to lesson the wrath of the UN or whatever, so it's still evil, still done for personal gain, and it still works to further their cause (which is not what we want). I think the last thing we need is china putting on a new face with ads on tv and magazines of happy school children and smiling elders or some other propoganda crap intend to change public opinion. It's great that some people may suffer a little less for a relatively short time, but it doesn't seem like a long term solution (again, they cannot be reasoned with, they aren't human in the way that we understand the word, they are a group of hitlers).

Memory works through association, which is how advertising works. I feel like the olympics will be one big postive association (effective ad campaign) for their evil dictatorship. It's a chance and a reason for china to brainwash the rest of the world into thinking they great while dominating even more people and becoming even more powerful. I think they may put on a happy face for a year or 2 but once the satellite transmissions have stopped I strongly suspect things will get even worse by the hand of a gov't that will be richer, stronger, more vindicated, more globally accepted, and more high on their own power than ever before. I guess I'm a pessimest when it comes to cruel dictators, hehe.

cheers,

Satori

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Originally posted by Satori

I strongly suspect things will get even worse by the hand of a gov't that will be richer, stronger, more vindicated, more globally accepted, and more high on their own power than ever before.

This may very well be true but it misses my final point that the only way this regime (the "group of hitlers", as you call them) can be brought down and can be put down like rabid pitbulls would come from the masses, the people of China. Until pressure is put from within as well as from without, the Communist government has no reason to alter it's way of doing anything - especially if they're not reasonable, not even human in that regard. They'd need to be overthrown (be it pseudo-peacefully like with the U.S.S.R. or more violently), and for that to happen, the masses have to be conscious that they're being fucked... and be pissed off. A morally aware foreign media circus in the capital of the country might just have a strange way of reinterating democratic ideas into the minds of the people, and questioning the environment in which they live. The rest of the world knows that the Chinese government is oppressive, the "advertisement" of the gov't by way of the Olympics won't change our minds about anything, it's the Chinese people we need to worry about.

Some more half-baked thoughts,
HoserHellspawn

 

[GUNDAR]

I'm little surprised to see all the positive views on this whole gay-marriage thing. I mean, I'm not homophobic but I think gay marriage is rediculous. This has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. i personally hate to see gay dudes kissing and all that in Jerry Springer show. But because of media exposure such as that, I think that people are starting to think that being gay is okay... again, I'm not bashing homosexuals..just making a point. If they want to be gay, go ahead. i just wouldn't want to see my kids go to church and see two gay dudes getting married in the future. So my whole point is that, they DO come out of their closet quite too often and it needs to be controlled. if I offended anybody, sorry but it's just my opinion.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by GUNDAR
I'm little surprised to see all the positive views on this whole gay-marriage thing. I mean, I'm not homophobic but I think gay marriage is rediculous.

If you think it's ridiculous then it's your right to not participate or attend a gay marriage.. problem solved. As long as your right to no be actively involved and think it's ridiculous doesn't impede on the rights of others, there's no issue.

This has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. i personally hate to see gay dudes kissing and all that in Jerry Springer show. But because of media exposure such as that, I think that people are starting to think that being gay is okay... again, I'm not bashing homosexuals..just making a point.

Perhaps you shouldn't watch shows which depicts gay dudes kissing if it bothers you so much.

Are you suggesting that being gay isn't ok? Seems to me that you are, and I find that kinda sad/outdated. Where did you get this idea that being gay is not "okay" and why do you believe it?

If they want to be gay, go ahead. i just wouldn't want to see my kids go to church and see two gay dudes getting married in the future.

If it was your kid's choice (assuming they are old enough to make it) to go to church to see gay dudes getting married then I would hope you would have the courage and wisdom to support them in their choice, and even accept/support them if they were one of the gay dudes getting married. Somehow I don't think you would. How sad/intolerent and inherently prejudice.

So my whole point is that, they DO come out of their closet quite too often and it needs to be controlled. if I offended anybody, sorry but it's just my opinion.

What do you mean by "they DO come out of their closet quite too often"? Are you suggesting that a percentage of gays should pretend to be straight for your benefit? And why does it "need to be controlled" and how would you do this? Perhaps set up an agency that provides certain people with licences to "act gay" while denying licences to others? Yea, that'll work.

Unfortunately, you have not done much to further your cause and much to make it seem just too silly to take seriously.

People are who they are independent of your opinions of them and if you can't accept them for who they are then you are the problem, not them. They aren't hurting you and would love and accept you if you could love and accept them, but you obviously cannot (how sad).

Thanks for sharing, I know how hard it is to go against the grain of the consensus.

Satori