stirring the pot some more

[Lina]

Here's the link for the article I mentioned from the Washington Post. I think the link will stay active for two weeks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1013-2001Jul15.html

 

[Silhouette]

Originally posted by Satori


Perhaps you can explain this with logic: A supreme being creates humans which must believe in it's existence without any sort of proof. It gives these beings logical minds with the tendency to evolve very quickly and question everything. The supreme being insists we must acknowledge it's existence and worship it and fear it. The supreme being plants evidence on earth and in the formation of the universe itself which tends to negate it's own existence, but we are still expected to swallow this load of crap. We are expected to suppress our own logic and reason, something we hold very dear. We face eternal hellfire for simply being ourselves - who we were born to be. Does that sound logical?

If God did exist, presumably it would make itself known. It wouldn't hide from us and then punish us horribly for not acknowledging it. If God does this then God is one sick and twisted fucker and isn't even "nice" by human standards, much less divine standards. I would never be so sick/cruel to anyone or anything as "god" has been to us by placing us into this twisted mental trap. If we are going to concoct a god, we should at least create one that's morally better than ourselves, but this one isn't, it's so unimaginably egocentric and cruel that even Hitler pales in comparison.

The idea that god could be such an egotistical and cruel bastard is just plain ridiculous. The idea that god would get off on the worship of some lowly creatures on this little planet is also illogical. If god creates people with logical minds and free will then it's got to expect that some/most people will fall for the misleading evidence it has planted and reason out that god does not exist in any way that we can understand it.

Everything about the god story mimics a dictatorship society. We have personified ultimate reality in our theology and there's nothing even remotely logical about that.

master of blasphemy,

Satori

Yeah ... that's how I feel, thanx for saving me the typing, hehe.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

I...err...uh, no. No. Of course not.

(you wouldn't happen to know anyone who could set me up for a meeting with Putin and Zemin, would you?)

 

[love]

heya Satori
a couple more questions


you keep making the point of saying that Jesus was a Jew, why would anyone think otherwise?

I agree Jesus was a political figure in his time. For the most part i agree with all of what you say here but i cant see that making Jesus any less important. Yes Jesus was a serious political threat to Herod and Caiaphas and alot of the Jews saw him as the Messiah that would break the oppression. Jewish sages taught that there were 2 aspects of the same Messiah in Scripture- the suffering Messiah(Lamb of God) and a reigning Messiah(Lion of Judah). Under Rome oppression the Jews of Jesus' day were only looking for the reigning. In fact several times in the New Testament Jesus is flat out asked "Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom of Israel". He was not the Messiah they were looking for. The blindness to the true identity of the Messiah was sent from God to the Jewish people (New AND Old Testaments both account for this) (Deut.29:4; Isa.6:9; Jer.5:21; Ezek.12:2; Mat 13:14-15; John12:40). Why you ask? becasue if the Jews had accepted the suffering Messiah all Gentiles would be lost. The failure to see was Gods plan so that all might have the opportunity of redemption.

Also you never answered before hehehe were ever baptized in either way?

LOVE
Love

 

[Duvall]

I see the word "Messiah" being thrown around, and I was reminded of this article. So just to throw something ELSE into the..er..pot..


http://cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc11/christ.html

Found this while sifting through www.disinfo.com, which is full of stuff like this, but typically more along the lines of conspiracy theory.

Anyway, I found this article to be very interesting, well laid out and well researched. While I can't vouch for any correctness, it's a good read nevertheless.

Oh, and I wasn't baptized, since my father's a lapsed (?) Anglican and my mother a non-practicing Jew.. does that make me bad?

enjoy!

 

[Satori]

Luke Wrote:

>For someone who has spent the majority of this thread going >on about political tools, it surprises me that you would suggest >we use the olympics for leverage against China.

Are you suggesting we have a better and more humane poltical tool to use as leverage? If so, what do you propose? Yes, I have gone on about religion being a political tool, but that is not to say that I think all political tools are inherently bad. This was your assumption, not mine, nice try at putting words in my mouth though. When a tool is used to end the suffering of the innocent it is a good thing, of course.


>Aren't the olympics supposed to transcend political boundaries?

Yes, that is if people actually WANT the political boundaries to be trancended, and in the case of china I would bet that most canadians do not. Not if it means compromising our values by associating with fucking evil savages. I feel most people generally have too much self respect for that. I feel the china gov't is UNWORTHY such an honour of hosting the olympics.


>Yes, I do dare to compare Canada with China. You haven't said >anything to refute the examples I made showing the common >denominator of the two countries.

There is nothing to refute/deny about the examples you provided, it's just entirely out of context and I felt it was simply too weak to reply to, but I will now: Comparing china to canada is a lot like comparing dynamite to bbq coals. Its outlandish. News flash: it's 2001. Canada has acknowledged it's wrong doing and even more importantly, canada most likely will not repeat it's mistakes. Canada is even making half-ass attempts to make up for the damage it has done. Can you say the same of China? No, you certainly cannot. Therefore your comparison, while historically accurate, does not reflect the CURRENT situation. China = Canada? Come on man, do you honestly expect anyone to buy that nonsense? You're grasping at straws.


>Canadian's are so obstinantly stubborn in thinking that their >country is the best in the world.

hahahhaha, now that's a good one, canadians stubborn in thinking they are the best? I don't know what canadians you've been hanging out with, but most canadians and the rest of the world views canada as very humble about their beloved nation. If anything, canada is one of the most passive about national pride and such, "too passive" if you ask most people. I've heard this countless times, mostly from americans. This statement is very silly and doesn't apply to very many canadians, at least none that I've met, and I feel most non-canadians would agree with me on that. Canadians have not and have never been known for their national pride. I'm quite honestly shocked that you didn't know that, I thought everyone did. Oh well, live and learn.


>A little introspection soon shows that we have a floundering >economy, serious environmental issues, and a not so spotless >track record with our natives.

Indeed. When was the last time our gov't tortured someone to death for speaking their mind? When was the last time we invaded another country and killed everything in sight (raping women, torturing everyone, forcing children to shoot their own parents)? Are we abusive to our own citizens? Do we limit freedom of expression, religion, political alliance, etc? Again, I still feel that comparing Canada to China is completely ridiculous. We are living in the here and now. Now is what's most important, the past is important as well, but not anywhere near as important as NOW. Again.. you're grasping at straws.

>So, while perhaps to a lesser extent, Canada is guilty of the >same offences for which you would deny China the olympics.

Who isn't guilty of such offences (as you say to a lesser extent) if you go far back enough in time? Those damn apes were savages too. We are talking about right NOW. There are people suffering right NOW and giving them the olympics is giving them the fuel they need (money = power) to continue the atrocities and crimes against humanity.

>Lina is right, in that 'cutting China off' would be detrimental.

So your solution: Let's give them more money/power. Oh yes, that'll surely fix their goat (give me a break). Rewarding a gov't for their misdeeds (ie. olympics) will do nothing to deter them (and detering them should be the prime objective, the ONLY objective, doing nothing shouldn't eve be an option, we are obligated to do everything we can to end the suffering ). People are being tortured/killed. Enough is enough. Perhaps if you were the one being totured you'll feel differently. Perhaps if you were Tibetan and had your life and future completely destroyed you wouldn't be saying "hey, let's give china the olympics, that sounds like a good idea".

>As I said before, this is a good opportunity for a lot of people to >have a real experience of China. It perhaps will elminate some >western misconceptions, and bring new awareness to a large >number of people.

At what price? As long as it isn't YOUR blood being spilled or YOUR life/future/family/culture being destroyed then I guess it's ok.

People are already more aware of china than they'd like to be. The world is disgusted with them.

>And while being an opportunity for the Chinese government
>to make a few yuan, it is also a forum to allow large amounts of >currency to go directly into the hands of the people. Can you >tell me that is a bad thing?

Ok, let me get this straight. You actually believe that the coin that the gov't makes from the olympics will "go directly into the hands of the people"? hahah, come on, you can't be serious. You can't honestly tell me you believe this will happen. The money will increase the power of China to inflict evil on it's own people and the rest of the world. Your faith in their conscience and motives in completely unjustified. The idea that wealth invokes compassion is just too ridiculous for comment. If anything, it has the opposite effect.

In your reply, try to keep the conjecture to a minimum please cuz this is just getting silly now, thanks,

Satori

 

[love]

curious thats all
hehehe didnt intend to imply that by the question,
who am i to say your bad?

later
Love

 

[Aranea]

The Chinese government is commiting atrocities against human beings and we cannot condone that, period.
They are entering villages of innocent people, raping, torturing and murdering them. How would you feel if someone came into your home, raped and murdered your mother and/or sister right in front of you? Would you feel that the governing body that executed this action should be deserving of financial reward?

You actually think that the money generated by the Olympic games would be used by such obviously SELFISH, DESTRUCTIVE, GREEDY, DEPRAVED officials for any good at all? Who are you kidding? Especially in a communist environment, where the government controls basically everything. You just haven't thought this through at all, I can see.

Not to be rude, but when I think of those poor innocent people being tortured and killed TODAY, RIGHT THIS MINUTE, it just makes me sick. We are all sorry for the actions of humans in the past, but we cannot control what has already happened.
WE CAN CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS NOW.

If Canada were commiting atrocities such as these RIGHT NOW, I would hope that the olympic commitee would be intelligent enough to make a different choice. We're not perfect, but we're also not torturing, murdering, or commiting genocide either.

At my graduation from medical school this year, we sang the Canadian National Anthem. It was a proud moment, and a special moment, because we all acknowledged that it is something that Canadians rarely do. Canadians are not often noted for their patriotism, we are a multicultural nation and we pride ourselves on our acceptance of peoples differences in religion, race, and sexuality.

Aranea

Originally posted by luke

 

[luke]

Originally posted by Satori
Luke Wrote:

>Canadian's are so obstinantly stubborn in thinking that their >country is the best in the world.

hahahhaha, now that's a good one, canadians stubborn in thinking they are the best? I don't know what canadians you've been hanging out with, but most canadians and the rest of the world views canada as very humble about their beloved nation. Canadians have not and have never been known for their national pride. I'm quite honestly shocked that you didn't know that, I thought everyone did. Oh well, live and learn.

perhaps the Aussies or the Europeans can back me up on this one..Who has the most flags sewn on their backbacks? Who kicks up the biggest fuss when they are mistakenly called American? Just because you don't see nationalism at home, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[/B]Perhaps if you were Tibetan and had your life and future completely destroyed you wouldn't be saying "hey, let's give china the olympics, that sounds like a good idea". [/B]

Please refer to my post 'Zhongguo' for a more detailed argument. If you were aware of the social structure of the Dalai Lhama's Tibet, you wouldn't be so fervent about getting the Chinese out. Are you aware just how close to facism it really was?

[/B]>As I said before, this is a good opportunity for a lot of people to >have a real experience of China. It perhaps will elminate some >western misconceptions, and bring new awareness to a large >number of people.

At what price? As long as it isn't YOUR blood being spilled or YOUR life/future/family/culture being destroyed then I guess it's ok.[/B]

Seeing as we are both speaking on behalf of others, I think you should allow me the argument. I was suggesting that more people from the west having a greater understanding of what happens in China could only be a good thing. I think I could extrapolate on your argument of 'giving China the olympics we help them to commit atrocities' and also state that by not forcefully inteceding we do the same.

[/B]People are already more aware of china than they'd like to be. The world is disgusted with them. [/B]

Are you trying to say that ignorance is bliss? Knowledge may not be power, but it is a key to it.

[/B]>And while being an opportunity for the Chinese government
>to make a few yuan, it is also a forum to allow large amounts of >currency to go directly into the hands of the people. Can you >tell me that is a bad thing?

Ok, let me get this straight. You actually believe that the coin that the gov't makes from the olympics will "go directly into the hands of the people"? hahah, come on, you can't be serious. You can't honestly tell me you believe this will happen. The money will increase the power of China to inflict evil on it's own people and the rest of the world. Your faith in their conscience and motives in completely unjustified. The idea that wealth invokes compassion is just too ridiculous for comment. If anything, it has the opposite effect. [/B]

This is actually more of a moral dillema for those travelling to Myanmar, than to China. This Chinese have public works systems, a limited welfare system, and health care, not to mention one of the most rigorous education systems around. So not all of the government's resources go to the Ministry of Torture and Murder of Innocents. More to the point, the government will retain power regardless of the few hundred dollars I would spend there. But I can make a positive influence, by going to out of the the way places, and spending my foreign exchange in the private sector. In fact, when I go to China or Myanmar and spend money buying goods or services for m the people I am just as effective, if not more so, as various aid agencies which provide by indirect means. Every time I spend a dollar on a bus ride or bowl of noodles, it's a dollar that wasn't there before. Being aware of how I spend my money in these places, I can limit the amount that will go into the hands of the officials. You misinterpret me.

[/B]In your reply, try to keep the conjecture to a minimum please cuz this is just getting silly now, thanks,

Satori [/B]

I suppose it is now isn't it? I'd just like you to note that I have been careful not to defend China's policy, and for the moment I will keep my politics to myself.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by love
you keep making the point of saying that Jesus was a Jew, why would anyone think otherwise?

Because Jews don't believe that Jesus was the incarnation of God. That would mean that Jesus negates his own divinity (which he openly did).

I agree Jesus was a political figure in his time. For the most part i agree with all of what you say here but i cant see that making Jesus any less important. Yes Jesus was a serious political threat to Herod and Caiaphas and alot of the Jews saw him as the Messiah that would break the oppression. Jewish sages taught that there were 2 aspects of the same Messiah in Scripture- the suffering Messiah(Lamb of God) and a reigning Messiah(Lion of Judah). Under Rome oppression the Jews of Jesus' day were only looking for the reigning. In fact several times in the New Testament Jesus is flat out asked "Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom of Israel". He was not the Messiah they were looking for. The blindness to the true identity of the Messiah was sent from God to the Jewish people (New AND Old Testaments both account for this) (Deut.29:4; Isa.6:9; Jer.5:21; Ezek.12:2; Mat 13:14-15; John12:40). Why you ask? becasue if the Jews had accepted the suffering Messiah all Gentiles would be lost. The failure to see was Gods plan so that all might have the opportunity of redemption.

Sorry, what was the point you were trying to make? I tried to find it but I was unsuccessful. Please clarify.

My point was to show that jesus was a man like any other and that he had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of the religion his "followers" hold so dear. His memory was perverted for political ends (if you think jewish history is at all accurate - which I do cuz they had nothing to gain by lying like the new christians did). I don't expect you to believe this, but now that you know it's a possibility then I think you owe it to yourself to find out more and to question the faith you have blindly accepted as fair and factual.

Also you never answered before hehehe were ever baptized in either way?

Yes I was (I'm neither proud or ashamed of this since it's something I had no say in), but what I don't get is why you feel this is in any way important? The whole idea of baptism is quite silly I think so I don't see how it's relevent to the discussion. What is more important is that I had grown wise enough by the time I was 13 to refuse confimation (I was the only one in a class of 70) and in doing so I was able to prove to myself for the first time that they didn't have me under their thumb and that I was able to escape the trap that is religion. A "leap of faith" (in myself) of sorts. That was a great day for me, my first official step towards freedom and for me it was probably much much more spiritually fulfilling than it was for the rest of the 69, most of whom just went along with it out of a sense of duty to their parents/teachers/society. At that time (13) I was still pretty new to not thinking as someone with religious psychosis and I wondered if I'd ever recant on my decision, but at 28 I'm even more proud of my decision now than I was then, and I was pretty darn pleased with myself then. You see, in doing so, I was embracing my spirituality and allowing myself to be free from the binds and I've been reaping the benefits ever since.

I feel you have a very similar sense of spirituality and can relate to my experience exactly, but with important differences: I don't live according to someone's else's rules/ideals/plan and I have no guilt and absolutely no fear of death whatsoever. I have accepted my place in the world's continuing evolution and food chain and I don't feel the need to think I'm immortal. I am free to be who I really am instead of who I think I should be. I feel this makes me genuine. I'm assuming you are bound by rhetoric which pervades your every thought and action and I'm assuming you feel god gives you absolutely no privacy to think without fear of reprisal. I'm assuming you feel like many religious people - a subject to the almighty dictator and that there is no escape. That's a terrible burden which I hope you can some day shake off. I know you feel you have found ultimate happiness in your supplication, but I feel even more happiness and spiritual fulfillment awaits you when you shake off the twisted tale of faith and simply accept who and what you know you truly are: the product of billions of years of environmental and biological evolution. It's beautiful.

best wishes,

Satori

 

[luke]

Originally posted by Aranea
The Chinese government is commiting atrocities against human beings and we cannot condone that, period.
They are entering villages of innocent people, raping, torturing and murdering them. How would you feel if someone came into your home, raped and murdered your mother and/or sister right in front of you? Would you feel that the governing body that executed this action should be deserving of financial reward?

If Canada were commiting atrocities such as these RIGHT NOW, I would hope that the olympic commitee would be intelligent enough to make a different choice. We're not perfect, but we're also not torturing, murdering, or commiting genocide either.

Canadians are not often noted for their patriotism, we are a multicultural nation and we pride ourselves on our acceptance of peoples differences in religion, race, and sexuality.

Aranea

RAPE? Since when has the Chinese government been on a rape campaign? Who's the one who hasn't thought out what they are saying?
Hmm, right now, I don't know. Will something as recent as the 1990's satisfy you? Anybody remember the Somalia incedent? For those of you who weren't aware, some members of the peacekeeping factions that Canadians are so proud of sadistically tortured and murdered African civilians. Can you guess what the response of the Canadian military was? They blamed it on the malaria prophylactics. I know many people who have been on this medication for extended periods of time, and while they may have bad dreams, or become short temepered, it certainly doesn't lead them to torture and kill the people around them. I think it is self-deluding to claim that nothing has or is not going on as far as Canada is concerned.

Did you say 'pride'? Doesn't that constitute the basis for nationalism? The real problem is that most Canadian patriotism is manifested in the form of anti-Americanism. How many of you Canucks enjoy watching Rick Mercer's 'Talking to Americans' or have complained about American tv with rights to NHL coverage putting that stupid puck tracer on every pass and shot? And why is that mostly Canadian have voiced out against Beijing getting the olympics? I'm sure the Brits and the Danes and just about everybody else doesn't condone what may be happening in China, but you don't see them all is a big furor about it, now do you?

 

[Brotherelf]

Let's start with this...

"homosexuality is rather silly (sorry, but it kind of is)" -- Saturnix.

Lina then responded with ..."This is ridiculous. everyone gives their little opinions about homosexuality, disregarding the fact that people are born that way, just as most people are born heterosexual. if the bible says otherwise, it's just one more example of how irrelevent the bible is to reality. the battle for gay rights is the modern battle for black rights. it's as simple as that."

That response is nonsense. First of all, two men or two woman simply cannot have children together. Therefore, no matter what religion or creed you are, it is unnatural. Second, blacks had to fight thier way out of slavery, which is nothing compared to the little remarks gays recieve. The two can't even be compared. Gays are not a different race. We only know when people are gay when they tell us or when they flaunt it. There is no battle, they only like to make a big deal out of things. Furthermore, other than mentally retarded children, we are all born with the same mental capacity. Our brains begin developing in our early stages of life, and we are always learning and being influenced by our surroundings until we die. NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN BORN GAY! That's like saying we are born a rapist or a murderer, or mad or depressed. We are what we are because of what we let influence us in our environment.

 

[Silhouette]

Originally posted by Brotherelf
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN BORN GAY! That's like saying we are born a rapist or a murderer, or mad or depressed. We are what we are because of what we let influence us in our environment.

I disagree. I've heard numerous creditable ppl say that homosexuality, mental disease etc etc. has alot to do with our brains, genes, and the way they're made up. You can't seriously tell me that every gay person in the world chose to be that way.

 

[love]

Satori

My point was that the Old Testament speaks plainly about Jesus' life not being for the Jews but the Gentiles and that the Jewish people would reject him for what he was because of Gods will. The point is that of course Jewish history shows him as nothing more than what he was perceived to be.
Not strictly the New but also the Old Testament speak of this. In a sense what your saying is what the bible already states.

I cant see "new" Christians gaining anything. In fact the portion that remained in Jerusalem were flat out persecuted, Saul(Paul) was one of the most vocal, to the point of stoning. Paul hated Christians. If your talking about the Roman church using Christs name for the horror they unleashed theres no denying it.

As for the baptism question i was simply curious.

Thanks for your concern i genuinely appreciate it!
You rock! I dont consider God a burden though.



thanks for chattin
LOVE
Love

 

[Orchid]

Originally posted by Brotherelf
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN BORN GAY! That's like saying we are born a rapist or a murderer, or mad or depressed. We are what we are because of what we let influence us in our environment.

Originally posted by Silhouette
I disagree. <snip!> You can't seriously tell me that every gay person in the world chose to be that way.

He didn't say he thinks every gay person chooses to become gay. It's about influences and environment, and I agree. No one chooses to be a serial killer, such people just get twisted that way by certain elements, such as the environment they live in, lack of something, etc.

And now...

Originally posted by Silhouette
I've heard numerous creditable ppl say that homosexuality, mental disease etc etc. has alot to do with our brains, genes, and the way they're made up.

Do you often believe what creditable people (who have been dubbed "creditable" by no one else but some other people who think they are creditable to dub someone creditable) say or write? I never do - actually I hate comments which tell you what to think. I like to get all the facts and make my mind based on them.

 

[Silhouette]

Ok then, my mistake, he didn't say everyone chooses to be gay. But he did say that no one is born gay and that it is only the environment etc etc that determines it. Now this is false. Homosexuals come from every walk of life, there's nothing in every gay person's life that makes them that way except for certain parts of their brain, genes etc etc.

And when I say creditable ppl, I'm talking about researchers, teachers etc etc. I mean if these ppl aren't creditable, who else is going to give us correct information?

Please, if someone does know the exact facts on it and I am wrong, then I will eat my words. But until then, I think that environment has little to do with whether someone is gay or not.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Brotherelf
That response is nonsense. First of all, two men or two woman simply cannot have children together. Therefore, no matter what religion or creed you are, it is unnatural. Second, blacks had to fight thier way out of slavery, which is nothing compared to the little remarks gays recieve. The two can't even be compared. Gays are not a different race. We only know when people are gay when they tell us or when they flaunt it. There is no battle, they only like to make a big deal out of things. Furthermore, other than mentally retarded children, we are all born with the same mental capacity. Our brains begin developing in our early stages of life, and we are always learning and being influenced by our surroundings until we die. NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN BORN GAY! That's like saying we are born a rapist or a murderer, or mad or depressed. We are what we are because of what we let influence us in our environment.

No one is born gay? How many gays did you poll to discover this? How many scientific articles did you read on the subject? How many of your gay friends told you that their sexuality was a decision influenced by their environment?

You honestly don't feel people are genetically predisposed to things? You think people aren't born mad or depressed? These are the result of genetic mutations which you are foolish to discount. It's like saying, no one has ever been born with heart disease or 6 fingers because these things aren't "natural". News flash: everything is natural.

Comparing gays to blacks is totally justified cuz they are both victimized for things which they cannot change. Would anyone expect blacks to bleach their skin and start listening to garth brooks? No. Do people expect gay people to just become straight, as if it were a "problem" they need to fix? Yes. Hey, you're right, there is a difference. Blacks aren't expected to change and treated like they have an impairment, but gays are. I'd much rather be black than gay in this society if I had the choice (which of course I do not cuz genetics predetermines these things).

You were born straight, why is that such a mental leap for you? Sexuality is instinctual, for you and everyone, just like the tendency to suckle before and after birth. Some people get turned on by children, animals, fear, pain, etc. Everyone is different, and I'm sorry they don't fit into you limited world view of what is "natural" but that's YOUR issue, not theirs.

Your remark: "Furthermore, other than mentally retarded children, we are all born with the same mental capacity." is simply too funny for words. Hmm.. are you simply not aware of the role that genetics plays in intelligence? Apparently not. How unfortunate.

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Orchid
He didn't say he thinks every gay person chooses to become gay. It's about influences and environment, and I agree. No one chooses to be a serial killer, such people just get twisted that way by certain elements, such as the environment they live in, lack of something, etc.

I see. So by that logic, no one is born with a predisposition to anything. So if my parents weigh 400 pounds and I turned out obese then it's entirely cuz of "certain elements, such as the environment they live in, lack of something, etc."? Ridiculous. If I were adopted and lived in a different country I would still most likely have a weight problem. Would you not think so? Apparently not.

You can't chop and divide reality so that it fits into your limited world view. If you feel no one is born with genetic predispositions which influence their sexuality then you must also feel that any genetic predisposition is also bullshit (and i know you aren't silly enough to make that claim). It applies to everything or nothing, you can't pick and choose what genetic dispositions apply to. Whether you think so or not, you are mostly the product of your genes.

Sexuality is one of the most fundamental and instinctual aspects of a person's makeup and something they have very little (if any) control over, sure it's open to environmental influences, everything is, but I feel you are greatly exaggerating how much. Also, the fact that almost all gay people know they are gay by the time they are 4 or 5, even before they know what sex is, suggests that their limited exposure to sexual stimuli has had limited influence.

Have you never heard of investigations of identical twins separated at birth who lived apart for their whole lives whose lives ended up taking incredibly similar paths? If you have, then how can you assert that genetics plays such a small role in a person's makeup? Or do you feel that sexuality inparticular is "learned or environmental" while things like hair colour and food preferences are not? There are even genes with predispose people to addiction or violence or mental illness. Do you doubt this as well? Why is that such a mental leap for some people? It makes so much sense that I find it hard to think that people can't see that. What's the mental block? Is it simply a symptom that people can't accept others for who they really are?

OBVIOUSLY you never heard of some experiments that were done with rats in the US a few years ago. They were able to create gay rats quite easily by giving the momma rat a small injection of estrogen in the first trimester. The amount injected was not significant and simply mimiced the hormone flux that any and all pregnant female mammals experience. Without fail, the new born rats all displayed sexual behaviours of the opposite sex. Are you going to tell me that it was the rat's environment (and not the hormone injection during gestation) was the cause of their gayness? Tell me, what environmental influence caused these rats to turn out gay? Did the researcher wear a pick lab coat that day? Maybe it was the smell of the chicken he had for lunch? Come on, let's be serious. Rats whose momma wasn't injected were all exposed to the *exact* same environmental influences and only about 1% of them turned out gay (which is the about the same percentage we see in humans, dogs, deer, etc, ie. NORMAL, NATURAL ratio that we see in NATURE).

Now that you are aware of the gay rats, what are you going to do? Suggest that the researchers were full of shit (ie. not creditable)? Suggest that I made up the story? I get the feeling that a lot of people will do whatever it takes to hang on to their rigid views, even in the face of evidence which makes their viewpoint seem quite invalid. That's pathetic. I have the courage to change my viewpoint in the face of logic/evidence to the contrary and I wish everyone did too. To do any less is to not intellectually evolve.

Evolution is based on genetic mutations. We see organisms mutate/evolve all the time. We are who we are because of this. We are the product of mutation/evolution and to deny this is simply ridiculous.

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by love
Thanks for your concern i genuinely appreciate it!
You rock! I dont consider God a burden though.

Since god is basically telling you how to live your life, how can that not be a burden? You are not free to be yourself. Since god is always looking over your shoulder and keeping score and constantly expecting you to grovel before it in fear/submission, how can you consider this not to be a burden? Don't you suppress your sexuality like most other religious people? If so, that's a burden too.

I wish you could accept all things as they are without bias, good or bad, and see that they are all an expression of the same reality that you are. I'm sorry that you feel distinct and forever divided from the universe of which you are an integral part.

Modern religion feeds the tendencies of egocentricism and our own subject/object division. True spirituality (IMO) is about feeling connected with reality, not disconnected. With a god watching you and judging you and alway making you feel extremely aware of your "self" and like a distinct entity, feeling connected is quite impossible. The idea of "soul" and "immoratality" also feeds this feeling of segregation.

So bascially it comes down to this: what do you feel spirituality is? Being a supplicant to a dictator-style god or being free to be who you really are without fear, guilt, or illusions of permanent segregation?

Ice crystals forming
Radiance swarming
Docile morning
Embraces your soul
Seclusion shatter
In silent clatter
Time, thought, and matter
Unite in the whole.

Everything is so beautiful, even that which you consider "bad". It's just ENTIRELY how you choose to look at it. If we hold on too tightly to our subjectivity then we are imprisoned by our own perspectives. When a mind is liberated from the binds of it's own inherent subjectivity then we are free to be who we really are at each moment and that is real spiritual fulfillment. By the way, this stuff I'm saying here is not something I made up, it predates modern religion and is an experience that many people from all walks of life throughout history have had and benefitted from. But until you can let go of your "self" (subjectivity) then you will remain trapped by your own ego and never experience the joy of complete spiritual and intellectual liberation.

Please don't fear anything or repress yourself or dwell on desires of god's approval or salvation or whatever. All these things cause you to be egocentric and negate spirituality and cause suffering. Religion is a cage of one's own making from which escape is very difficult. Perhaps for everyone it isn't a cage, but I suspect/feel that for most people it is cuz I've seen so many people suffering needlessly because of their struggle between their own faith and reason (the self-defeating trap that is modern organized religion). Not fun.

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

Satori

PS: Reality IS subjective. "Truth" is subjective. There is nothing except interpretation.

 

[Satori]

Hey all, what follows is an article I read today. I thought it's a good article to show 2 things:
How canada does NOT tolerate violence of ANY kind (unlike China).
How archaic biblical crap conflicts with modern thinking.

If anyone here (Canada) thinks it's ok to beat their kids with a twig or whatever as punishment then just saddle up and head on down to the states where god (and the rod) reigns supreme and unrelenting. I'm sure you can find refuge from the oppressive canadian gov't in the bible belt where you can inflict as much physical PAIN on your children as you feel would satisfy your god and your own anger-driven sadistic urges, you cruel, twisted, heartless, brainwashed primates. The same goes for the wife-beaters (like the child-beaters who are religiously obligated or otherwise) out there, canada does not welcome you and you will be dealt with like the common criminals that you are if you try to pull that shit here. We don't tolerate that crap and freedom of religious expression will NOT hold up in court here. We don't care who your god tells you it's ok to inflict pain on or how you can justify violence to yourself into a moral responsibility issue. You hurt someone, you face the consequences, and your god, true to form, will not save you from the law.

Enjoy!

Satori


Spanking supporters flee to U.S.


AYLMER, Ont. (CP) -- Communities in Ohio and Indiana have become havens for ultra-religious women and children fleeing child-welfare workers in this southwestern Ontario Canada community, says a U.S. reverend.

More than half of those who fled last week have sought refuge with congregants at a sister Church of God in Dayton, Ohio, near the Indiana border, according to the pastor there, Rev. Ray Tinsman.

Tinsman claims 74 children and 26 mothers have left Canada.

Seven Aylmer children were taken from their home on July 4 after their parents refused to promise not to hit them in the future.

Tinsman said the recent exodus includes a family with nine children, the oldest of whom spoke out Tuesday.

"It was my parents' decision," said the 14 year-old, who left the southwestern Ontario town with three sisters and five brothers.

The family was among the first to leave, filling a van Friday morning and driving to a home on the outskirts of Farmland, Ind., where they were joined by a second family from Aylmer's Church of God.

Most of the other families that fled left Friday night or Saturday morning, church officials said.

None will return unless the Children's Aid Society capitulates and allows church members to punish their children in the only manner they say the Bible allows -- using a limber rod like a twig, Tinsman said.

Those who fled feared their children would be seized by the Children's Aid Society.