stirring the pot some more

Yeah, it didn't really apply so I decided not to state that it did but rather let you guys decide. I kinda wanted to throw something out there that might help support the underdog of that debate just a little to keep it interesting. I do, though, think everyone has been reasonably fair, and I think everyone no matter what their take on the issues has been quite civil. I've had so many discussions like these where argumentative, short-tempered and ignorant people can really run amok - I'm glad that doesn't happen here.

I guess before we close the discussion, I'd like to take a sec and shine the proverbial spotlight back on the solution to the issue I suggested earlier. I've gotten a few responses... does anyone else agree with this? Does anyone else have a different and better suggestion to end this issue?

With the passing of the proverbial stirrage of the pot 'o social issue, would anyone like to suggest how it could settle?
 
Originally posted by saturnix
however, what scares is me is the growing number of religious groups and churches that will dither their dogmas enough to fit same-sex marriages in the "OK" column. while the government can recognize same-sex marriages as a matter of course, there shouldn't be any church in the world willing to marry gays, unless those religion are watering down the bible and their sacrosanct codes.

what it really is, is religions are now catering to the public, so that their only function, rather than saving souls, is givving thumbs up to any practices formerly held in contempt by the traditional church. in that case, it becomes not so much a church but another figurehead governmental institution.
Click to expand...

Wow, there's an eye-opener. It's like I've stepped into the middle ages or something. People still think like that? wow. I was too quick to think we had left this kinda insanity behind us. At least in the first world nations anyway.

"groups and churches that will dither their dogmas enough to fit same-sex marriages in the "OK" column. " and
"what it really is, is religions are now catering to the public, "

Huh? You mean there was a time when groups and churches DIDN'T cater to the public? Do you think there was ever a time when they didn't measure their success by their number of members?

", rather than saving souls.."
Hahahaha. I thought that was the funniest thing I've read on this board so far. Saving souls? Wow, they got you eh? What else did they tell you? I'm sure it's equally as ridiculous, whatever it is. I'm sorry that you have been victimized and mislead, they've robbed you of rational thought and that's just sick.

", it becomes not so much a church but another figurehead governmental institution"

Hmm.. seems you aren't aware that churches ARE figurehead gov't institutions. Why do you think they were invented? Why do you think the egyptians built the pyramids? Why do you think wars are fought? Do you think church/state were always divided? Do you think they now truly are? Read an american coin. Religion is still used by gov'ts to mind-fuck people, it's just done in a more round about way. Take a flight to Europe some time where people are killing each other every day and then tell me that you think religion is divided from gov't. I find it truly sad with all the shit and human suffering that's going on in the world (most of it done by gov'ts fucking people mythical religious nonsense) that you are so obviously clueless. For you to suggest that tolerence of gov't/religion is a BAD thing, well, that just makes me want to puke. They need to be much much tolerent of each other. If you don't like REALITY then you have every right to shut yourself off from the rest of the world. But suggesting that tolerence is the cause of problems is simply EVIL. Tolerence is the solution. People are free to be what they want to be. I'm going to puke now.

Satori
 
Satori, there is a distinct difference between faith and religion. Religion has long been the cause of wars and rivalries. Been used to mask underhanded agendas for zealots, and to rationalize the murder/mistreatment of people.

I am by no means a religious person, because I have an automatic disrespect for institutions and authorities. However, I do have an unwavering faith in Christ, which, despite what a lot of people may think, is neither tyrannical or oppresive. Churches' messages are that of servitude. Faith's is that of salvation.

However, it used to be that churches at least pretended to be a guiding moral force in people's lives. Its scary when moral-mongers don't even make an attempt anymore.
 
Originally posted by saturnix
so while i am a heterosexual male (and a christian) and think that homosexuality is rather silly (sorry, but it kind of is), i also beleive that people's sexual preferences are their own business, unless it involves underage children, etc.
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I was going to let this slide but I just can't, it's my weakness.

How can you logically/rationally write that you think sexuality is silly? I mean seriously man, what goes through your mind when you come up with that? Do you simply not realize that sexuality is a biological function which, like any OTHER biological function, is open to all the same sorts of genetic variation? Homosexuality is an *expression* of biology. You are straight, great. Did you choose to be straight? No. You were born that way. Homosexuals are born that way, just like you, no different. Some people like milkshakes. Some like the smell of gasoline. Some like the sun, some don't. Some are straight, some aren't. For you to say the homosexuality is silly is like saying that you think liking chocolate is silly.

People can ONLY be who they ARE. As much as you probably would like them to suppress who they are (seems like the christian thing eh?) it's not going to happen. The world has accepted homosexuality and I think it's time you did too. It's attitudes like yours that make this world such a fucked up place. People need to love each other more, that means YOU saturnix. Look around you, they are your brothers and sisters. People don't choose their sexual orientation and they shouldn't be put down for something that is just a much a part of them as their hair colour. Who else do you find silly? Bald people? Retarded people? Tall people? Skinny people? What other genetic variations do you regard as "silly". I'll say this, you sure have balls to go on the net and say that crap. Most people are ashamed to think that much less actually say it, but you don't have that problem. Perhaps you should.

Sorry to be so harsh but I can't help it, I'm just very passionate about what I'm saying. I want you to know that I don't hate you, I love you in the same way that I love all things without bias, and I only wish you could say the same. But unfortunately you are a prisoner and a victim of your own thoughts. I feel sorry for you and I want to help you but it has been my experience in these sorts of situations that there nothing I can do to save you from yourself and you are probably doomed to remain this way for the rest of your life. That's sad cuz as the rest of the world is moving forward you will not, clinging to ancient political agendas. I'm sorry that they did this too you. I don't blame your parents, your school, your society, no one is to blame for religious dogma, it's just and unfortunate reality at this point in our evolution but we are slowly outgrowing it. My only hope is that some day you will outgrow it as well and have the courage and wisdom to accept and love others as they are. I have faith in you. You can free yourself of the mental cage they've put you in and I would help you anyway way I could. I know you can hear what I'm saying. The little voice of reason in the back of your head which you've been taught to suppress is still there. You probably refer to it as "doubt". It's not doubt, it's YOU, it's your sense of reason and it's trying to tell you something. Listen it to it. You don't need me to tell you that religion is a sham, you already know this. You know that it's not healthy and that it's not making you happy. Try to delude yourself as you probably do into thinking that you are happy and that everything is wonderful, but I'm not going to buy it. I know what it feels like to have someone else doing your thinking for you. You leaned your intolerence from them. There is an escape from this political mind-fuck, it's hard but it's worth it. When you are free from it, you'll know that it was worth the effort. I speak from experience. You are probably disregarding what I'm saying here but that little voice of reason in the back of your head just won't shut up will it? It will never shut up. Try as you may to crush your logic/doubts, it will always be there and it will only get louder as you get older/smarter. There is nothing for you to fear, except yourself that is.

cheers,

Satori
 
Originally posted by saturnix
I am by no means a religious person, because I have an automatic disrespect for institutions and authorities. However, I do have an unwavering faith in Christ, which, despite what a lot of people may think, is neither tyrannical or oppresive. Churches' messages are that of servitude. Faith's is that of salvation.
Click to expand...

Salvation? Come on, let's be serious for a moment. Do you actually think you are immortal or something? Look around you, why would you think that's even remotely logical? What basis do you have for this opinion? It's archaic and not even a worthy topic of discussion.

And what's this of faith in Christ. You mean Jesus the jew? The POLITICAL FIGUREHEAD of jewish people who fought against (and subsequently lost his life) to the romans (christian movement). I see you are believing the dogma you've been fed like a good little christian soldier. Now pay your taxes and kill or die on command, that's it. You don't realize that jesus was a jew and NEVER claimed to be divine or any of that crap. Jesus was AGAINST the christian movement, which is why they viciously murdered him. I'm sorry if this is the first time you are hearing this, they really should've told you this stuff. Jewish history, which was recorded around the time of the life of jesus (unlike the bible which wasn't even started till some 30 or so years after jesus' death) has quite a different spin on events which would interest you greatly. Why believe them? Well, for one, they weren't hell-bent on creating a new religion/political system (which was the SAME thing in those days). I find it hilarious how you claim to be anti-institution and yet you are so obviously totally sucked in by one of the oldest, largest, and by far the most corrupt institutions ever divised. Think about it, you actually believed what they told you without researching it in the least. That's just sad. I know you trusted them but they are unworthy of your trust. It's a FACT of life that: governing bodies (gov't/religion) are inherently corrupt. They've robbed you of so much and you don't even realize it. Look around you, there's nothing to gain, nothing to fear. You are an expression of your environment just like everything in the universe is. You were born and you will die. Nothing is immortal. You are just as much a part of this earth as a rock or the sunlight that feeds it. It's the illusion of your own distinction that causes you to desire "salvation" and selfish things of that nature. Trust me, it's a lot easier to just accept yourself for the biological being that you are than keep of this facade of convincing yourself that you believe in some outlandish story that quite frankly insults your intelligence. Listen to your voice of reason, it has some important stuff to tell you and it can help you get past these ancient ideas which plague your mind and fill you will selfish desire and intolerence.

I wish you well in this venture of personal discovery.

Satori
 
well, the argument about homosexuality is pretty much over, i'm sorry to say, because it was quite interesting. also, you're twisting my words, but don't worry about it.

as to your remarks about religious dogmas, it seems strange that you can consider faith to be a hindrance. you forget that openmindedness is a bias as well... that a "laissez faire" attitude about the world (yes, minding your own business is fine; not caring about the general societal concensus on things is fine) can be just as constricting as you consider religion to be. the high-handed belief in complete freedom of will is just that... a belief.

besides which, i don't see how following the teachings of Christ will "hold me back" as the rest of the world moves forward. "God is love", as is written previously on this thread. Christ died for the sins of everybody, homosexuals included. He loves them, which is why I don't find any problems with them as people, nor have I ever. (I live nextdoor to two lesbians, in fact, and they're very nice ladies).

So in fact, I think you are confusing the basic message of the Bible, which is...

1. We sinned, even when God told us not to.
2. If we believe, we are saved, anyway.

Much of our general moral standards are pulled from the Bible, and people don't have any problems thinking that sex with animals or family members is pretty disgusting, despite the fact that provisions against homosexuality are in the preceding verse. But none of that matters, and that is the single-most misunderstoof thing about religion: that it consists only of old-testament law, and not of the new-testament forgiveness.
 
OK.

Please don't think I'm picking on you, but as I work my way through this thread the stuff you say just keeps blowing my mind. I'm quite literally shocked.

". however, there have to be people who reproduce, or else we would cease to exist. my point was that homosexuality therefore amounts to nothing more than simple hedonism, as with many heterosexuals (i never said they weren't silly, either, but at least heterosexuality can sometimes have a practical purpose)"

So because homosexuality doesn't reproduce offsping, it's hedonism. I don't need to say what's wrong with that logic. You seem to belittle homosexuals to little more than sex freaks who are doing something to get off. You don't even KNOW that they love and adore each other very deeply and that their attraction is a lot more than just getting it on. Homosexuality does have a practical purpose in biology, tonnes of animals display gay characteristics and since we are evolved from them we have them too. Men have nipples. People have appendixes. We are who we are evolved to be, right or wrong isn't even an issue, that's just the way things are, it's so simple. I don't get what the huge deal is.

"However, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but (voice drops to a whisper) you can't speak out against gays. Not that I've got anything against them: they haven't hurt me. But any Average Joe who even starts to say that homosexuality is wrong or sinful is pounced on by liberal do-gooders and called a bigot and a hater and accused of "homophobia". "

yes, we've noticed. It's NOT NICE to dump on people for something they can't help. You saying that is like saying (to me) that you think fat people are stupid pigs or something. What you are saying is NOT NICE and I feel sorry for you that your parents neglected to teach you that. It's not your fault that you are a little anti-gay, you were fed that and you are just a product of your environment, sad as that may be. You are being prejudice. You are a prejudice person cuz you can't accept people for who they are and I feel sorry for you.

"As to the life experience matter.... you can't tell me that babies are born gay. Otherwise you wouldn't have 3rd graders giggling about "boobies": you'd have tykes who are more interesting in finding mom's Playgirl than dad's Playboy. Most homosexual epiphanies occur in late teenhood. I'd hate to believe that it's simply alternate wiring that doesn't kick in until later in life."

Again, you say this simply cuz there are holes in your knowledge. If you knew more you would realize that being gay/straight happens in the womb in the first or second trimester. How do we know this? By experimenting with other animals (which we are incredibly similar to in every way). That's how we know everything, by experimenting (but religion isn't open to such speculation it seems, that's why it's so obviously just a crock of shit). Are you saying that there are no gay 3rd graders? Come on man, where have you been for your whole life? Of course there are. EVERY gay person I know KNEW they were gay by the time they were 5 or 6 years old. Every gay person I've ever met who knows other gays has said they all had the same experience. When did you figure out you were straight? I was 5 when I got my first crush. Gays are exactly the same. You think this way cuz someone fed you this crap. You aren't even aware of the findings that totally negate your little theory. You don't even care to check, you just go about ranting and slicing and dicing reality so that it fits into your limited world view. I know a few tykes who were far more interested in checking out the mens' underwear section of the sears catalog than dad's playboys. Perhaps if you were simply more open and more aware of reality as opposed to your limited subjective interpretations then you would know this already and I wouldn't have to tell you. This line cracked me up: "Most homosexual epiphanies occur in late teenhood.", seriously man, how gullable and stupid do you really think we are? I suppose you did the studies personally eh? How many gay people did you poll? A lot of people know a gay person and has asked them about this kind of stuff, your betting on the ignorance of others just makes you seem pretentious and naive. People are generally more infomed than you give them credit for. That kinda crap might blow over on a christian chat but it won't be tolerated here, we are too smart for that. Nice try though.

"And now that I think about it... you're right: the head baboon will sometimes mount a subordinate, but that not for pleasure either: it is on par with dogs putting their tails between their legs."

No it isn't. It's on par with dogs displaying sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. I had a female dog that would go nuts and hump other female dogs while threatening to bite any male dog that tried to mount her. That's homosexuality. I really shouldn't have to tell you this, you should already know this from school. Let me guess, did you go to a religious school? Yea, they told us that masturbation was "evil", talk about the fuckin dark ages eh?

"if only a "couple" of animals engage in non-reproductive sex (i'd like to hear them, by the way, since I've never heard of others)...
and there are hundreds of animals with homosexual behaviors (it must be non-repoductive, right?)...
so why aren't there "hundreds" of animals engaging in non-repoductive sex?"

Many many species of mammals has homosexuals. You want to hear a few? Here you go: Dog, whales, dolphins, horses, sheep, apes, deer, elk, people. There are countless others. Even some birds.

To answer your question, there ARE hundreds of animals engaging in non-reproductive sex. Man, don't you get the discover channel? How could you not know that? The holes in your knowledge quite frankly scares the shit out of me. But what's even scarier is that you don't know about the holes. Too much self-assurance is a very dangerous thing.

Ok, I feel like I've done my civic duty for tonight.

Love rules, hate sucks.

Satori
 
Originally posted by saturnix


besides which, i don't see how following the teachings of Christ will "hold me back" as the rest of the world moves forward. "God is love", as is written previously on this thread. Christ died for the sins of everybody, homosexuals included. He loves them, which is why I don't find any problems with them as people, nor have I ever. (I live nextdoor to two lesbians, in fact, and they're very nice ladies).

So in fact, I think you are confusing the basic message of the Bible, which is...

1. We sinned, even when God told us not to.
2. If we believe, we are saved, anyway.
Click to expand...

Wow. They really got you good man. You are so incredibly hung up on this whole sin/salvation nonsense that you are missing out on life. This stuff about Christ dying for the sins of everyone is just ridiculous. How those nasty romans killed him and then twisted it around to make it seem like a good thing is just plain sick and shows how incredibly gullable people are. I can't believe that you fell for their self-serving rhetoric. Jesus was a JEW and he fought for Jewish rule. Why the hell do you think they totured/killed him? For kicks? Cuz it was god's plan? To save you from hell? heheh. At that time religion = politics. Jesus was a jewish political leader. He fought against the uprising of the new political-religion that evolved into christianity. They used the memory of jesus some 30 years later to form a gov't and take power on a wider scale by creating a more user-friendly religion. If Jesus were alive today he would be absolutely horrified to see how his name has been twisted and used against his own people (the jews). Think about it, he fought and died for his cause and then his murderers (the roman catholics) used his memory for their own political gain. It's just sick and I'm sorry you fell for it. But now that you know this, you really should learn more. Don't take my word for it. Read some history from different places. Get informed. I know in our christian society knowledge is kinda frowned upon but knowledge is freedom. They would like it if you didn't read much and just believed what they told you like a good little christian but you don't have to do that. You have the means to discover different versions of the story. You owe it to yourself to investigate. Maybe it'll scare you at first, but that's good. Positive changes are always scary at first, but I believe in you and I know you can escape this mental cage they've put you in if only you had the courage to trust your own voice of reason and stop suppressing it. You don't need me to tell you religion is a huge sham, you already know this deep in your heart. I know you know what I'm talking about, I've dealt with a lot of hopelessly brainwashed people and self-delusion is always the prevalent characteristic which prevents them from being free from the psychological binds. There is nothing to be afraid of but your own scary thoughts. There's no boogey-man waiting to toture you when you die, come on, you know this already, stop trying to convince yourself of this fairytale, it won't work, you've been trying for a long long time and you aren't any closer to swallowing it. It's just such an incredibly outlandish story which just happens to keep people in line with the ol' punishment/reward system. It's an insult to your intellect. You aren't a child and you deserve better than you've been given.

1. We sinned, even when God told us not to.
2. If we believe, we are saved, anyway.

Seriously man, as one human to another, wake up. This is not healthy. Take your head out of the clouds for a second and wake up to your own subjectivity. This idea of "sin" is just ridiculous, it's completely subjective and relative to the time and society. This whole belief thing, give me a break, as if some omnipotent being is somewhere dwelling on whether or not you have faith in it's existance (without any proof or even a logical basis). Come on, where do you get this air of self-importance from. You are incredibly insignificant in the scale of the universe. The idea that a god would actually care what you think is sillyness. People are so self-absored it's laughable. I don't think you see yourself for who and what you actually are, instead you've deluded yourself into thinking all this nonsensical shit which was planted in you for the purpose of getting you to defeat yourself. That's what religion is and why it was designed in the first place, to structure societies. It's a political TOOL, of which you are, sadly, a victim.

Why do you think they place so much emphasis on faith? Think about it. If it were actually true there would be no question about it and we wouldn't need faith. Why would god hide itself for the most part and sit around hoping the hairless apes on this little planet would acknowledge it's existence? (btw, god is an "it'", not a "he", sex is determined by the genitals of organisms and presumably god wouldn't have a penis cuz it wouldn't have a place to stick it. A penis is an inverted vagina and it evolved in conjuction with the vagina, which is why it looks and feels like a vagina and fits into one so perfectly). Think about it this way. Lets say I was a poltician. I go about saying, "I'm going to fix the roads in this town" and then I start going on about how "you must believe that I'm going to fix the roads, you must believe.." it starts to sound like bullshit. If it were true, if I were actually intending to fix the roads, why would I insist that you believe that I do? Either it's true or it isn't, your belief in it doesn't change it. So that's the big giveaway of religion, they place so much emphasis on how you should "believe" them when in fact if there was any basis, physical, logical, or otherwise for thinking there is any shread of truth involved, then it wouldn't be a matter of "faith" it would be a matter of "accepting reality". But of course, religions aren't about accepting reality. What happened when Galilao discovered that the earth wasn't the center of the universe, or even the solar system? They (the church) called for his execution. Does that sound like they are accepting of reality? Of course not. The idiots that wrote the bible didn't know about the earth being round or dinosaurs and the fact that we are in between ice ages and that most life has been wiped from the earth 2 or 3 times now and it will be again and new life will evolve after that too. They didn't know about evolution, something painfully obvious to us now as we watch harmful strains of virus' and bacteria mutate/evolve and kill people. We aren't so ignorant of such things. We have a much better grasp of reality than they did. We are more evolved than them, just like they are more evolved than the primitive hunter/gatherer societies that came before them. You can keep your head in the sand or you can wake up to reality. Accepting reality is easy, but continuing to delude yourself with outdated nonsense that is laughable by today's standards will get increasingly difficult as you get older. The amount of energy you have to spend coming up with this stuff and suppressing the voice of reason in your head is not healthy. Just let go of it man, the time has come, cease the moment, now is the time to be who you really are. Had they not tinkered with your mind when you were so young you wouldn't have all this intellectual baggage and you would understand that your spirituality is totally within you. Life is beautiful.

Satori
 
Ok guys, one last tidbit for thought...
When I was in Taiwan, I remember reading about weddings held to pacify the ghosts of unwed daughters. Apparently, when certain young women pass before their time, they may chose to return to find the husband they had been denied during life. They will torment their own family until a groom is found, (usually by placing a red wallet in the street at night, and asking the samaritan who returns it to marry the ghost of their daughter) A ceremony is held, and the hauntings desist. I had a hard time believing this, until one night walking home from work I found a red wallet on the footpath. Needless to say I don't have a ghost for a wife, but maybe the poor sap who came along behind me did.

Ohh doesn't this open up whole new areas for conversation...like what would happen if it were to be a girl to return the wallet? Would they have a ghost lesbian wedding? How would the church object to this? We know women can't marry horses and men can't marry men, but what about ghosts? Is it a sin to have sex with a ghost? As these are all very pressing issues, maybe they should be discussed at length.....
 
Satori, I'm sorry, but this conversation isn't even worth having. Your super-long posts mean absolutely nothing, because people are even more stubborn about religion tha homosexuality.

Faith is something that you can't understand unless you have, as is atheism. However you're not apt to see that because you're certain you're right, which becomes just as much of a blind spot as you accuse religion to be.

Atheism is your choice, but don't expect to make any converts.
 
Originally posted by saturnix
Satori, there is a distinct difference between faith and religion. Religion has long been the cause of wars and rivalries. Been used to mask underhanded agendas for zealots, and to rationalize the murder/mistreatment of people.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is what religion has done and continues to do, with faith being the tool by which they achieve their bitter ends. Think about it. Without faith religion doesn't work.

Satori
 
Originally posted by saturnix
Satori, I'm sorry, but this conversation isn't even worth having. Your super-long posts mean absolutely nothing, because people are even more stubborn about religion tha homosexuality.
Click to expand...

Evidently. Isn't it interesting how the 2 seem to go together?

A very typical move, to suggest that the conversation itself is meaningless. A much more noble reply would have been to enlighten me on how whacked I am and to show it with your intellect. Instead you give up without even trying and you don't even try to defend the outlandish statements about the nature of sexuality you've made earlier. I expected at least that much. Your suggestion that the ideas I've presented mean "absolutely nothing" (something you are well aware is not true) because some people are "stubborn" is a logical fallicy, one has nothing to do with the other and you know this. Your intent is transparent and I'm a little surprised you would even try this old religious dogma trick I've heard a thousand times.


Faith is something that you can't understand unless you have, as is atheism. However you're not apt to see that because you're certain you're right, which becomes just as much of a blind spot as you accuse religion to be.
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Perhaps some clarification is due.

Faith: Believing in something someone tells you without justification or a logical basis. Continuing to believe in it in the face of overwhelming evidence of the contrary.

Atheism: After carefully considering the possiblities and *facts* as we generally accept them the most logical and likely thing is accepted.

Faith is having your head in the clouds and ignoring REALITY. Atheism is looking very hard and intently at reality. And now back to your thought: "which becomes [atheism] just as much of a blind spot as you accuse religion to be." Atheism is not a blind spot. An athiest seeks the TRUTH about things, if you gave an athiest a logical reason to think something then they would believe it. An athiest isn't gullable. Someone with faith on the other hand will blindly accept whatever someone sells them on. You seem to want to distinguish yourself from religion and all it's crap but you are speaking the very illogical nonsense that *they* instilled in you. You try to pass these ideas off as your own, but you know as well as I do that if this stuff wasn't fed to you as a child there's NO WAY you would believe it now. Unfortunately, as a child, you lacked the insight to understand that what you were being fed was just a tool of self-administered oppression. Had you heard this stuff as an adult you would find it repugnant and ridiculous like the rest of us do and you would be horrified that this practice still goes on. You probably also believed in Santa and the tooth fairy and they were just as real to you as this religious stuff is now. It's a shame someone didn't tell let you in on the secret from an early age. Now it is so engrained in you that you are unwilling to face facts. You can't even admit that gays were BORN gay (something I'm sure you knew all along, you don't seem quite that uninformed). Someone of faith does not seek the truth about anything, preferring instead to accept ancient dogma and close their eyes to the world in front of them. I find it interesting how this whole religion/faith/political thing is so pefectly constructed to totally control every aspect of a person's life. It seems a little too convienent, don't you think? Or was that god's plan? To provide humanity with divine knowledge so that we could use it for our own ends?


Atheism is your choice, but don't expect to make any converts.
Click to expand...

My expectation was to have a thoughtful and personable discussion, but as you can see it was not met as you are unwilling to counter even a single point I have made. I read this last line you wrote to my girlfriend and she said this: "...is that what he thinks atheism is? Some cult that's trying to 'convert' him?" Certainly not, you know this. Atheism, unlike the ancient politically driven rhetoric to which you admittedly subscribe, is a non-profit organization that has no desire to win you as a member. I'm saddened that you see being honest with yourself as a cult of sorts. Not everything is out to pervade your mind like religion/faith does. Not everything/everyone seeks to convert you into a good little follower of their dogma. What's happening here is that I am a very loving and very very deeply spiritual person who wants to help you. I was once like you, caught in that whole web of faith, monitoring my thoughts, feeling guilty for that which I can't actually control, fearing death, fearing my own lack of faith. Faith is the tool which cripples minds. You don't actually, really, and truly believe in this whole divine christ thing and you spend energy trying to convince yourself of it, that's the whole point of faith in the absense of logic/truth, to disable the wills of the masses, and it works very effectively. You have become your own enemy. Don't suggest that I don't understand faith, I was once wrapped up in it and since then I've helped many others escape the trap and they all have the same experience that I had of finally letting go and being free. It's a beautiful thing to just be yourself. I'm sorry that you are not free to think for yourself and that you actually spend time dwelling on this nonsense. It's not healthy and it causes you to suffer needlessly. How do you feel about being watched and having your actions judged, graded, and recorded every second of every day? Don't you feel just a little violated? That's a terrible burden to have on your shoulders. My compassion for you is greater than you could ever hope to understand. I only hope that you will take my advice and read some jewish history on the life of jesus, and also to read some books on theology and comparative religions cuz it will really open your eyes to a lot of things which you aren't aware of. Be curious and don't believe everything you read. Try to look at the reasons for things rather than the things themselves. Remember that religion is born of politics and that politics is inherently corrupt. And above all don't suppress that little voice of reason in your head which you have probably been taught to lable as 'doubt' or 'devil'. That little voice is YOU, it's the real you, and pushing it away is cutting off a huge part of yourself and that's simply not healthy. The information is all there for you to find and digest. All you have to do is stop closing your mind to it.

One other thing, the reason religions keep changing is cuz they have to to suit the times. Religions that don't adapt, like gov'ts, become extinct. It's not about love or being immortal (hahah, gawd that silly) it's about winning members. If someone persuades you to go against your own logic and better judgement as you have done then there is an underlying *reason* for their actions. In this case it was done to dominiate and control you. That's what gov't/religious institutions do and that's their true purpose and intent. I know you see that, it's painfully obvious. Your attempt to distinguish yourself from the religion to which you subscribe didn't work. I'm sorry that you have been mislead and I hope that someday you will have the wisdom and courage to grow past this and love and accept all people regardless of their sexual orientation or whatever. There is really nothing to fear and I really wish you could see that. You seem pretty smart. I think one day you will reach these conclusion on your own. Until then let your voice of reason speak to you and don't feel guilty for listening.

good luck,

Satori
 
can i ask ya a couple questions
these are just things im curious about i suppose.

You said you use to be caught in the whole web of faith.
Were you ever baptized in either way?

How long were you in this web before ya decided it was a sham?

Thanks
Love
 
Originally posted by love
can i ask ya a couple questions
these are just things im curious about i suppose.

You said you use to be caught in the whole web of faith.
Were you ever baptized in either way?

How long were you in this web before ya decided it was a sham?

Thanks
Love
Click to expand...

Hi Love,

those are really great questions and I thank you for showing an interest.

I was quite brainwashed in catholic school in a small ass-backward town in Newfoundland, Canada. I was completely stuck in the web of faith/lies/self-oppression until I was about 12 when I finally started to listen to my own voice in my head. Up until that time I did everything I could do to suppress that voice and I hated that. I lived in constant fear and guilt and I was so deeply traumatized by the viscious dogma that sometimes I would cry and tremble beneath my bed covers for hours, afaid to fall to sleep cuz I thought something bad would happen to me. I felt trapped in a life I didn't ask for under conditions which I felt were perverse and unfair. My mind was constantly spinning and talking to 'god' and since I couldn't always control what my mind said and I felt horrible and unworthy. Guilt is self-sodomy. This caused me such severe anxiety/depression that I wished I was never born, I would ask god to erase my life and extinguish my soul constantly. That's a lot for an 11 year old to take. I would've commited suicide had I not been sure that I would burn in hell. How sad is that? There was no escape, I couldn't live and I couldn't die and I cursed my own 'immortality'. The thing is that I am and have always been very spiritually slanted and when you force this viscious rhetoric on someone spiritually sensitive like me the result is the most unhealthy state of mind possible. I felt trapped and that I had no control over myself or my life. I had to live out someone's else's ideal while forever negating my own inherent spirituality which I secretly hated myself for adoring. Messed up. I suffered so much for so long and I nearly drove myself nuts. Since then I have met numerous people in real life and online that have had the exact same experience. This lead me to conclude that there are many kids/adults out there who are suffering like I once did and knowing that literally makes my heart bleed with compassion for them. I know their pain and how helpless and trapped they feel and I think I have the key to end their suffering because I was able to help others out of the trap as well. I even helped a yound lady who was so severely messed up by christianity that she was going to become a nun. She even went so far as to visit a convent, where she learned that nuns there don't actually *believe* in all that divine christ stuff, it's just a mythical philosophy they adopt and use to govern their lives and the lives of others even though they KNOW it isn't actually literally true. It's just a story. Christian mysticism they call it, one called it meta-christianity. The nuns there also assured her that that's the line of thinking in all the higher-up catholic institutions as well (bishops, the pope, etc) and if she wanted to be nun in their convent then she would have to face and accept this fact. She did, but when she learned she had been purposefully mislead her entire life (she was 25 at the time) it made her very angry. She went through all that self-torture that I had endured up until I was 12 but for her it lasted much longer and cut much deeper. It's very sad. After this experience she was able let go of the dogma that was hurting her for so long and she basically cried for a month and let all the fears and guilt and crafted lies wash from her. She stopped negating/suppressing her voice of reason and started listening. Now she is much happier and much more spirtually in-tune than she's ever been. This woman who dedicated her life to her faith and almost became a nun is now completely happy and well-adjusted and no longer feels like she has to force herself to be something she is not. The way I see it is this: if *she* can get past her religious psychosis then anyone can. Granted she's far more intelligent than most people but she was also more far-gone than most religious people ever get too. There's hope for everyone. I know people who didn't figure it out till they were in their 50's. It is possible to escape the trap that is faith/religion, I've seen it countless times.

Anyway, I was 19 before I had erradicated all those nasty self-sodomy habits from my mind and was truly free from its grasp. It took me 7 long years but I made it, and since then I have made it somewhat a mission of mine to try to relieve the suffering of others who were unfortuante to have been born into the mind-fuck that is organized religion. You have to be born into a religion to be dominated and hurt by it, trying to get an adult to believe such incredibly outlandishly laboured rhetoric is futile, even the dumbest and most gullable of adults wouldn't fall for it. This is why it's forced on children, religions are very aware that if they don't brainwash someone as a child then they've lost them as a member. They know how unbelivable their story is. When I think of the toment myself and others endured as a result of being mislead by well-intentioned elders then I can't help but equate it to psychological child abuse. To me, anyone who shoves religion/faith down the throats of children is doing them harm which will become a psychosis which will haunt them for the rest of their lives. When I think of other's suffering in this way it makes me want to scream and cry at the same time. I feel so sorry for them and so helpless to help them that my heart bleeds. I remember the detrimental effect that faith/religion had on my metal health and it makes me sick that others are still caught in this horrible unescapable web. I know I must seem like a bit of a freak but I am not, I'm just someone who is hurt by the self-imposed psychological suffering of others. Some have called me stupid or have suggested that 'the devil' has got to me. I assure them, the voice of reason which I am now speaking from is the same voice that was with me before I became brainwashed. It's me, the real me, the me that was always there before it was raped from my fragile 4 year old mind. Children deserve better than this.

If anyone reading this is suffering from religious psychosis and wants to escape it then I want to help you. You can reach me at nearaway@hotmail.com. It's not easy but it's worth it.

take care,

Satori
 
Originally posted by Xtokalon
The counter argument is: such an amendment that these coalitions are advocating "would create a constitutionally mandated second class of citizens"

I agree with the latter argument- though I'm not too versed in this whole thing. I'm heterosexual male too, and I think it's ridiculous that homosexuals can't marry. Freak the existing definitions of marriage- people need to get honest and redefine it and dismiss these more primitive and inadequate concepts of marriage. And to the point: we all know all this talk of constitutions etc is just peripheral, legalistic talk masking biggotry and the simple-minded sentiments of a bunch of simple minded religious folk who fallaciously appeal to their God as though that actually bears any weight, in court in argument, anywhere. It doesn't. Theirs is really nothing more than an egotistical tyranny that can never be justified, and that is the most "anti-democratic" thing in the world. The amendment these coalitions want ratified does create a group of second-class citizens, sustained and upheld only by the despotism of the ruling classes. Whatever happend to equality? I"m disgusted.
Click to expand...

Great post man, I meant to say that earlier but it slipped my mind. Good job, you really got to the core of the issue there.

Satori
 
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