stirring the pot some more

Hmmm ... ok, so what's the deal with ppl that were born and lived way before Jesus? How were they judged? They had no choices to make about following christianity since it didn't exist.

P.S. I'm enjoying this conversation, while it's not going to convert me, I like seeing other ppls take on religion. Lets me broaden my mind.
 
Originally posted by Xtokalon
Satori: I do think you are too harsh, and some of things you've are damn offensive. I understand you mean well- indeed everything you wrore with all your passion etc, you wrote not to antagonize Christians for the sake of antagonizing Christians, but because you meant well. But it's possible you are missing something or becoming that which you hate: a source for pain.

Thanks for the input. Had you had my experiences and if you had the friends that I have then you would not think so.

You are right, my intent is not to be offensive, but if I am then I truly don't care, I think people deserve to be told the "truth" without having it sugar-coated. Considering the horrors that religious mind-fucking has done to humanity and continues to do, I would expect nothing less of myself.

How do you feel about China destroying Tibet and then winning the olympics? Well that's how I feel about the ancient political mind-fuck that is modern organized religion and I make no apologies for that. There are countless people literally living in constant guilt and fear of an ill-intentioned myth, whether you may think so or not it's true, and it's all for them. If someone is sensitive and egocentric enough to actually get offended by someone else's opinions then I feel what I say of spirituality through selflessness would not click anyway so they may as well just get offended and stick their head back in the sands before their personal doubts cause them anymore guilt/suffering. If someone gets offended by me then I think it's just a symptom of the struggle within themselves to believe that which is simply unbelievable (aka faith). Faith is truly ridiculous. We should have the courage and insight to change our opinions as new discoveries are made. To do any less is to shun evolution - which is what we are.

>But it's possible you are missing something or becoming that >which you hate: a source for pain.

I have been and continue to be source for pain for many people struggling with themselves over this issue. That's my objective. Waking up to reality and deprogramming oneself is never fun or easy, but all I ask is that you believe me when I say it's worth the effort. To regain that child-like spirituality/innocence is worth (I think) any price.

Let me know if you have any other issues/questions, thanks

Satori
 
Originally posted by saturnix
Satori, I just want to know....

where are you getting this information about jesus/judaism/christianity from? i've never heard that take on it before.

At my local library. There are many many books written on the formation of christianity. Some say different things but most seem to agree. I've even seen some documentaries on TV about it, many over the years.

My ex-catholic friend heard from the head nun at the huge convent in Michigan about the jesus myth: When jesus was charged with the crime of claiming to be the 'son of god' Jesus said "It is you who say it." He never made that claim, he was a devoted jew and devoted jews simply don't do that. I have a jewish friend who finds it absolutely disgraceful that Jesus is spoke about in this way.

Just keep in mind, if someone want you to believe something and there is an advantage to them if you believe it (ie. "this is the lowest price you can get on this car") then chances are it's not true. People have been brainwashing others since the dawn of time. There have been countless religions that have achieved this for their own political ends (power, wealth, war). It's so obvious and it's still going on right now. How can anyone think that chrisitianty isn't just more of the same?

Satori
 
Originally posted by Lina
I know I shouldn't say what I'm about to say, and I know I'll get yelled at for it, but I can't help it. I think whether or not you believe in God simply comes down to how much common sense you have (naturally, I think I have tons. lol :D ) Atheists are people for whom the OBVIOUS impossibility of such a phenomenon is aparent. Some of us just can't even begin to understand how simple-minded the majority of society is to fall for something so utterly impossible. There is absolutely no difference -- zero, nada, none, zip, zilch -- between our God and the mythical gods of past civilizations. When we can't understand something, we give "God" credit. How about just accepting that we simply don't know how life was created? And don't say, "if we don't know, then how can you rule out God," because there are certain things that we know DON'T make sense. Science may not prove what *IS*, but it does prove what *IS NOT*. I think if you believe in God, you probably can't be convinced otherwise -- because the absurdity of it is so obvious that, if you had the mental capacity to understand it, you already would. there, i said it. i shouldn't have, but i did. let the flaming begin.

Wow! I love your courage and forthcomingness.

Will you marry me?! LOL:)

Satori
 
Originally posted by Silhouette
Fuck that. I just find it all too hard to believe.


Yea, you said it. It is a very laboured theory that's full of holes which collapses under it's own weight as soon as you do anything other than blindly accept the rhetoric without reasoning it (faith).

cheers,

Satori
 
Originally posted by Xtokalon
Lina: There is much about Christianity , that infrareferentially makes a lot of sense-- i just happen not to believe it. On a logical level, it is "seamless" But is it the truth? I don't think so, and for me there's much about it that I can never with good conscience accept, and find plausible. I'll explain in detail if you want. Anyway, I think your comment was uncalled for, but you know that already.:)

I think you are a little too sensitive for this discussion. Her comments were totally called for and she totally hit the nail on the head. I'm glad someone had the balls (ovaries?) to say it.

It is "seamless" on a logical level? Wow, funny stuff, I never thought I'd hear someone say that, even the most devoted never make that claim. I find christianity to be the most silly and illogical load of crap I've ever heard. It's so far-fetched and full of holes I'm amazed that anyone could think it's even remotely possible, much less logically "seamless". If it is so seamless to you then I'm surprised you weren't sucked in by it like many are. Why weren't you?

Satori
 
Originally posted by Satori




How do you feel about China destroying Tibet and then winning the olympics?
Let me know if you have any other issues/questions, thanks

Satori

Satori, I'm sorry for this, but your throat is wide open, and I'm gettin ready to jump!

As I remember, you are in Toronto, which just happens to be the city to come in second to Beijing's bid. Conflict of interest? I too hail from the great white north, but have travelled through China, and been about as close to Tibet as possible without going through the hassle of trying to enter. Just because China's record for human rights is under the public microscope, doesn't mean that there aren't a few skeletons in Canada's closet. May I suggest you read Farley Mowat's 'People of the Deer' or even try and research a band of Natives from Southern BC known as the Sinixt..The federal government declared them extinct in 1965, but they lived just down the road from me the last time I was there in 1998.
The fact that Toronto doesn't get to host the olympic's is a bit of a downer, but I think in terms of needing the benefits which result from hosting the olympics, China definitely deserves them.
This is a good opportunity for a lot of people to have a tangible experience of China.
Doesn't it seem obvious that as the last remaining stronghold of communism, China would be the focus of negative propaganda from the west? How many of you feel that China is a monster? Even people who are aware of the manipulating effects of government subsidized mass media are still susceptable to being guiled. It is just convinient to point fingers at the big red machine, and forget what's happened at home.
 
Originally posted by Silhouette
Hmmm ... ok, so what's the deal with ppl that were born and lived way before Jesus? How were they judged? They had no choices to make about following christianity since it didn't exist.

P.S. I'm enjoying this conversation, while it's not going to convert me, I like seeing other ppls take on religion. Lets me broaden my mind.

In Dante's 'Paradiso' he explains that pre-New Testament judgement was based upon merit and devotion to God. Seeing as in the Christian eye God created man, this would encompass all who have lived. Apparently the number of seats in Heaven was limited after the death of Jesus, I think at around 400,000. Things are looking pretty giri-giri for anyone of 6 billion who has aspirations of passing the pearly gates. Guess that means you and I are going to Hell, eh?

You're not the only one enjoying the conversation, methinks.
 
Originally posted by saturnix
there's no evidence as to the contrary, either.

Since you are the one making the illogical claim, it is up to you to provide proof for it. By your logic here I could claim that I am god and since there is no evidence to refute it it must be "true", or at least true enough to believe.

All we have is evidence. We can dispute our interpretations of the evidence till the cows come home but in the event of the lack of evidence there is simply no discussion.

I don't feel the need to say that religion is mythological, I think that's pretty evident already. What I am saying is the religion is detrimental to individuals and society and therefore not very good for us.

Satori
 
Originally posted by luke
It is just convinient to point fingers at the big red machine, and forget what's happened at home.

For the rest of the world to award China, a country with a glowing record of cruelity and human rights violations, is simply sick and perverse beyond all hope.

It's not just Tibet, there's much more going on there.

I'm quite literally shocked that you would compare Canada to China and suggest that China is in anyway deserving of the olympics. I feel it was a political move based in $$$, and that the horrors that the China gov't inflicts on it's people took the back burner to the almighty buck. That makes me sick, and for you to defend that just perverts it even further.

The rest of the world should cut off china entirely, not award them, come on people, what the hell are you thinking?

Satori
 
Originally posted by luke
Actually there are a fair number of people who convert after they come of age, and are apparently intellectually matured. I would like to propose an explanation, if I may, because I would tend to agree that religion is a hard pill to swallow.

How many of these 'of age' converts never heard of christianity or lived in a society where it was generally accepted? I feel that had they not been introduced to the idea at a young age (whether school, tv, celebrating xmas, whatever) then there's very little chance they could swallow it.

Your explanation of how they convert people is very accurate. They usually go for the hurt and weak members of society cuz these are the easiest targets.

It makes me ill how they fuck with the minds of people in other countries/societies and try to convert them. It's sick, these people have their OWN beliefs and culture, leave them ALONE.

Satori
 
Originally posted by saturnix
"facts prove nothing" (sherlock holmes)

it seems to me that facts are another type of belief. after all, before Galileo "proved" otherwise, everyone knew that the earth was the center of the universe. a lot of people here know that there's no God/Jesus/etc, because hey, that's just silly: we haven't seen otherwise.

Going even further than simply acknowledging someone's opinion, we have to consider what are own is grounded in, and if that ground is truly solid after all.

Truth is subjective.

People don't disbelieve the jesus myth because they haven't seen otherwise, they disbelieve it cuz it is so obvioulsy a laboured load of crap which is a tool for dictators to rule society. That has always been it's place. Your god is the same as the hundreds of other gods that came before yours was concocted. All religions (with the exception of some flavours of buddhism) were tools to reach that end. I still think you already know and have always known this and that you are still suppressing your own voice of reason.

Satori
 
Originally posted by Xtokalon
My point being you should take care to realize these boundaries and exercise your better decency. Peace.

My motive is compassion and my conscience is completely clear.

I have an excellent track record and have come to the conclusion that my no-holds-barred approach to this subject attracts those who can be helped that repels those who cannot.

If someone is so wrapped up in themselves that they would get offended by what I say then I think they are so incredibly far from selflessness/existentialism that nothing I could say would sink in, they are the ones who mistake their interpretations for reality and simply (IMO) aren't intellectually evolved enough to even begin to relate to the non-segregated depth of spirituality I am hoping to convey. It goes way way deeper than I've gone so far, but the first step is recognizing one's own inherent subjectivity and seeing past it (ie. not getting offended by the opinions of others).

In short, I do what I do cuz it works for me in helping others. I've tried other things (from being more pissy to being super-sweet) and nothing has worked as well. Your intolerence for my approach suggests to me that you are too focused on your 'self' and your own reactions to experience spiritual existentialism. Therefore, what I'm saying doesn't actually apply to you and isn't intended for you. As I said earlier, my methods attract the ones I can help and repel those I cannot and I try to be as efficient as possible. I'm looking for the super-spiritual mystical types who have been caught in the web of rhetorical self-sodomy that is religion and my posts are intended for them exclusively.

thanks,

Satori
 
Satori, we got married last Saturday, remember? Although I think my boyfriend had a slight problem with it. :lol: Apparently, we're honeymooning on the land of Opeth (Opet?).

I think my post that some people found offensive sums up my beliefs on religion, so I don't have much else to say on that front. (famous last words, no doubt :p )

As for China, I don't think shutting them out of the world scene is a good step. Rather, they need to be brought into the mix. Ignoring them won't make them think, "Oh, gee, maybe we should be nicer." It will fuel their anger toward the West and probably send them further down a dangerous path. Just today I'm reading in the paper about a treaty that China and Russia have signed -- in an effort to achieve world dominance. Pretty worrisome stuff. Keeping China engaged and in the world's eye is a far better approach than simply turning our backs while they stockpile weapons of mass destruction and surprise us one day. I hope, hope, hope that they will be forced to clean up their act somewhat now that the world will be watching.
 
Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
I can understand that Jesus was fighting against Roman power in Israel but to say he was "working against the proliferation of Christianity" suggests he was fighting something, that was (twistedly, yes) based upon his life AND death, that had yet to be concieved. I suppose the history I've read may be more influenced by Christian propaganda that that you have, but I'll repeat an earlier question: where is your source for all of these historical perspectives?

I've read so much stuff over the years that I've gotten from my local libraries. If there was one particular book I could provide the title but there isn't one inparticular than I can think of. The debunking christianity from a historical perspective is not entirely my bag, but it was interesting enough to me 9 or 10 years ago to read about. Now it just seems kinda boring to me cuz it seems so obvious, which is why I encourage everyone to read as much as they can. I take it all with a grain of salt but it does seem quite logical and likely and does explain a whole lot.

It's true that some jews thought jesus was the messiah. Oddly, some jews still think that, but most do not (or so I've been lead to believe anyway).

It is my understanding that Jesus fought against the roman rulers (who forcibly took control of the religious/political center of jewish society) who eventually (about 30 years after jesus' death - a social/political eye blink) created a new more friendly religion/political system that would make it easier for them to reign and rule the masses. Jesus fought against the political uprising which later was labled 'christianity'. The movement was happening during Jesus' life. Jesus was very vocal and the people at the time weren't very bright/logical and thought jesus was the much touted saviour they had been promised (dispite his own objections to this, as I said, they weren't too bright, we've evolved considerably since then). This empowered the Jews and gave them hope against fighting the roman army which threatened them in every way. So they (the romans) murdered jesus and that killed the "jesus movement", until it was resurrected 30 or so years later by Paul and then the bible was gradually written and called "the new testament" (which was a nice way of saying that the old testament (the jewish bible) was outdated - yet another slap in the face to the jews and jesus himself who was first and foremost a JEW). Jesus was attributed with all sorts of mythical supernatural stuff, after all, they were looking to show that they knew what god wanted and they were trying to get people to pay taxes and basically live to serve the dictators (which the same situation we have today - no surprise there). They used the 'miracle' stories to 'prove' what they were saying, all the while saying that they must 'have faith' cuz it was a sin/crime to even question what they were saying. How whacked is that? It sounds a lot like the current situation in China. No, it doesn't sound the same, it IS the same. Their intent was to cease power (something we primates are genetically programmed to do). The religion was (obviously) designed to meet this end.

Another little known fact repressed by christian dogma was that Jesus had a brother, James, who was very much like jesus in that he was politically active and such and lived and fought for the same cause as jesus. Both jesus and james were born to human parents and conceived with the ol' in-and-out just like anyone else. If jesus was divine by birth I'm pretty sure the jews would've known about it when he was born or shortly after, they wouldn't have waited till 30 years after his murder to come up with it and start spreading the word, and jesus himself would probably have been aware of it as well - which he was not. The whole virgin mary stuff started with Paul and was just one of his many untold politically weighted lies. Jewish people think it's ridiculous how some people think jesus was conceived without sex. Even the one's who think jesus was THE saviour (most think he was just another profit) don't think that.

Of course we'll never truly know what happened with certainty, but we can look at what everyone is saying and using history as a template (history tends to repeat itself) we can piece together the most likely scenario. For me, jewish history seems infinitely more trustworthy than the christian propaganda just by the fact that jews weren't bent on politically dominating europe so they had much less reason to mislead. The jewish people weren't known for being warriors/liars like the romans were, nor were they known for torturing/killing those who disagreed with them and since the romans were (they killed jesus and countless others) then I place my bets on the jewish version of the story being much more accurate. It's still biased by religious dogma but much less so I think cuz they didn't have an agenda of world domination like the bloody thristy savage romans did. Politicians lie, it's part of the job description.

In my old catholic high school from newfieland our school mascot was the roman spartan (yes, a blood thirsty savage army member, picutured in our gym in full war attire with sword, shield, whip, etc). How fucking twisted is that? Much to my pleasure, this high school is now a non-religious one. Religion is slowly dying, even in my little ass-backward home town. It's great that they are now leaving the kids alone, if the parents want to brainwash them then there's nothing we can do about that it but we shouldn't have tax dollars going to this end, it's perverse. People are getting smarter and less gullable all the time (aka evolving). Now if only religion would die in the middle east or the bible belt (where most of the negativity of religion is felt/suffered) we'd be making some real progress. Religion divides societies and creates political tension. Yes, there'd still be war without religion but much less I think, cuz people are much less willing to fight for political views alone. There's just something sick about telling people that god is on their and only their side. Religion is a political tool and it works extremely well at getting people to do things they would never do otherwise.

I used to know much more about the detailed history but now I'm much more into the hard-core philosophy and spirituality side of things. You seem to know a lot hoser, maybe you should be our resident history guy, hehe.

cheers!

Satori
 
Originally posted by Lina
As for China, I don't think shutting them out of the world scene is a good step. Rather, they need to be brought into the mix. Ignoring them won't make them think, "Oh, gee, maybe we should be nicer." It will fuel their anger toward the West and probably send them further down a dangerous path. Just today I'm reading in the paper about a treaty that China and Russia have signed -- in an effort to achieve world dominance. Pretty worrisome stuff. Keeping China engaged and in the world's eye is a far better approach than simply turning our backs while they stockpile weapons of mass destruction and surprise us one day. I hope, hope, hope that they will be forced to clean up their act somewhat now that the world will be watching.

wow. scary scary shit.

When I was thinking we should cut off economic ties with china I was thinking along these lines: The only thing the dictators care about is money and power. Cutting them off would make the country much worse off financially and that's the only thing we can do to them which will make them listen (I think). We have to hit them in the pocket book - the only place that hurts. As a candian I'm outraged that we have any political/economic ties with china at all. They don't deserve to have a relationship with us, I think. If I had a restaurant I wouldn't buy from a farmer who tortures his livestock and abuses his own children. For me, the same logic applies. If china wants a place in the world market then it should learn to play by the fucking rules. As much as I love and respect human life, I would love to open fire on those evil fucking dictators, not only would I not feel remorse, I would feel overwhelming pride in knowing that I helped rid the world of their supreme evil and cruelity and saved untold millions from suffering. I'm not pro death penality or anything, but in this case (ie GENOCIDE) I think I could make an exception. We could even use their justice system to convict them, that way, if we started in the morning we'd have them all executed by around noon and we could take a nice long lunch to reward ourselves. Oh well, I can dream.

So there. heheeh :)

Satori
 
Originally posted by Xtokalon
Indeed it is logically seamless, but again that is "infrareferentially" speaking, which means only with respect to itself. This kind of simple apologetic work is not even debatable, though i think showing you this simple truth would be an elaborate affair which I'm simply not interested in undertaking at the moment. There are nuances, very important ones here , about my use and understanding of such things as "logic", so be aware that when I use the word, it's not so commonplace. Is Christianity logical? Absolutely. Does this at all so much as give Christianity a nod of approval, well, actually not at all--- it's no big deal that Chrisitanity is "logical"

Perhaps you can explain this with logic: A supreme being creates humans which must believe in it's existence without any sort of proof. It gives these beings logical minds with the tendency to evolve very quickly and question everything. The supreme being insists we must acknowledge it's existence and worship it and fear it. The supreme being plants evidence on earth and in the formation of the universe itself which tends to negate it's own existence, but we are still expected to swallow this load of crap. We are expected to suppress our own logic and reason, something we hold very dear. We face eternal hellfire for simply being ourselves - who we were born to be. Does that sound logical?

If God did exist, presumably it would make itself known. It wouldn't hide from us and then punish us horribly for not acknowledging it. If God does this then God is one sick and twisted fucker and isn't even "nice" by human standards, much less divine standards. I would never be so sick/cruel to anyone or anything as "god" has been to us by placing us into this twisted mental trap. If we are going to concoct a god, we should at least create one that's morally better than ourselves, but this one isn't, it's so unimaginably egocentric and cruel that even Hitler pales in comparison.

The idea that god could be such an egotistical and cruel bastard is just plain ridiculous. The idea that god would get off on the worship of some lowly creatures on this little planet is also illogical. If god creates people with logical minds and free will then it's got to expect that some/most people will fall for the misleading evidence it has planted and reason out that god does not exist in any way that we can understand it.

Everything about the god story mimics a dictatorship society. We have personified ultimate reality in our theology and there's nothing even remotely logical about that.

master of blasphemy,

Satori
 
Originally posted by Satori


For the rest of the world to award China, a country with a glowing record of cruelity and human rights violations, is simply sick and perverse beyond all hope.

It's not just Tibet, there's much more going on there.

I'm quite literally shocked that you would compare Canada to China and suggest that China is in anyway deserving of the olympics. I feel it was a political move based in $$$, and that the horrors that the China gov't inflicts on it's people took the back burner to the almighty buck. That makes me sick, and for you to defend that just perverts it even further.

The rest of the world should cut off china entirely, not award them, come on people, what the hell are you thinking?

Satori

For someone who has spent the majority of this thread going on about political tools, it surprises me that you would suggest we use the olympics for leverage against China. Aren't the olympics supposed to transcend political boundaries? Didn't you have enough 'member's only' olympics with Los Angeles?
Yes, I do dare to compare Canada with China. You haven't said anything to refute the examples I made showing the common denominator of the two countries. Canadian's are so obstinantly stubborn in thinking that their country is the best in the world. A little introspection soon shows that we have a floundering economy, serious environmental issues, and a not so spotless track record with our natives. So, while perhaps to a lesser extent, Canada is guilty of the same offences for which you would deny China the olympics.

Lina is right, in that 'cutting China off' would be detrimental. Everbody can see just how effective the isolation imposed on Saddam Hussein has done to weaken his grip on power. As I said before, this is a good opportunity for a lot of people to have a real experience of China. It perhaps will elminate some western misconceptions, and bring new awareness to a large number of people. And while being an opportunity for the Chinese government to make a few yuan, it is also a forum to allow large amounts of currency to go directly into the hands of the people. Can you tell me that is a bad thing?
 
You seem to know a lot hoser, maybe you should be our resident history guy, hehe.

Do I get any special privilages with that position? Heh.

(Completely incidental note: I think this is or may soon be the biggest/longest/most read thread in UM history)

Canada's record isn't perfect and we could be charged for a lot of the same things as other countries, but it's all an issue of degree. We screwed over some of our natives, yes, and we turned back boatloads of fleeing Jews preceeding WWII. This latter fact may be the single item of my heritage of which I am most ashamed, but all sorts of other countries did the same (not that this makes it okay, but...), and Canadian history's penchant for screwing natives is a distant second to the U.S.'s history of annihilating them, especially if you look at more recent developments to make amends like the creation of Nunavut (for what it's worth) and the Niss'ga Treaty. So, no, we're not perfect, but compared to Chinese history of the past hundred years I must say that in all fairness, comparisons are far outweighed by contrasts.

Lina, "Just today I'm reading in the paper about a treaty that China and Russia have signed -- in an effort to achieve world dominance." Really?! I'm completely unaware of this... I'm going to look it up now but if you remember (or still have that paper kicking around) the name of this treaty that would be very cool, thanks.

As for the IOC giving the 2008 games to China, there's pros and cons to that and I'm not too informed to make a strong case either way. I will say that it strikes me as being interesting that a civilian international athletic comittee has what many people view to be a strong control over political events and the ability to do such an apparent amount to provoke change in the political climate of the world. I guess I'll simply say that I hope it induces the positive results the IOC is hoping for in this obviously politically-driven decision so the discussion of whether or not this was the right thing will be moot by the time it's over.

And, for more pot stirrage, here's another off-topic thought I've developed: The original "Stirring the Pot" thread dealt with, amongst other things, Affirmative Action and I strongly opposed the idea of using reverse discrimination to make up for past historical injustice... but I have a thought. If we're going to go ahead with AA anyways, let's carry it out to it's maximum, I say. Let's make up for every injustice... EVER, to the fullest.

Warning: Extremely offensive facetious thoughts follow

For starters, I suggest we execute one christian for every Jew that has been pointlessly murdered throughout history. We start with the Skinheads, Neo-Nazis, and KKK, then work our way through the bible belt and massacre random men women and children until that number has been reached. Of course, we'd have to calculate that number first, keeping the crusades, inquisition, holocaust, and other random attempted genocides and abhorrent mass-murders in mind. And, we'd have to burn one church for each synagogue that's been attacked in the past 2000 years. Then, because we feel sorry for how we'd just been persecuting the Christians, we can compensate for our own actions by getting the U.N. to create a Christian state somewhere in what used to be Palestine for them to live. The Isralies and Palestinians won't mind, right?

Actually, according to THE ONION, a similar process is already in place with the creation of Ethniklashistan - read full story here: http://www.theonion.com/onion3723/west_bank.html