Sturmgeist Press Release/ Finnish shootings

[thisisaformicatable]

I see no need to "back up" basic findings of social science that have been established through decades of research.

 

[cookiecutter]

A reputable website would be nice

 

[thisisaformicatable]

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Sociology-John-J-Macionis/dp/0132184745/ref=sr_1_5/104-7621957-6925537?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194839592&sr=1-5[/ame]
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Sociology-Introduction-Abridgement-CD-ROM-Review/dp/0073293911/ref=sr_1_6/104-7621957-6925537?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194839592&sr=1-6[/ame]
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Sociology-Henry-L-Tischler/dp/0495093343/ref=sr_1_7/104-7621957-6925537?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194839592&sr=1-7[/ame]
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Sociology-Essentials-Margaret-L-Andersen/dp/0495390933/ref=sr_1_9/104-7621957-6925537?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194839592&sr=1-9[/ame]
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Sociology-Richard-T-Schaefer/dp/0073209473/ref=sr_1_10/104-7621957-6925537?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194839592&sr=1-10[/ame]

 

[skeptik]

I think he is arguing that since mental illness is not a solvable problem, or at least a problem that is hard to identify,we should solve what we know we can.

Nec, is there any hard evidence that the school is what makes people do school shootings? I mean, it's obvious that school shootings are caused by mental illness (see Cho) but what about schools seems to cause it? It does appear obvious, but there does seem to be a gap between correlation and causation. It could be that schools are targets just because that is where the unstable people receive the most social contact and abuse, and changing the schools will never change that. I feel a little unsure if my reasoning here so correct me where you think I am wrong.

Well I don't know man, these shooters tend to think that the schools might be a major cause of why they shoot schools, I'm just basing this on what they say. Schools are abundantly obvious targets for minors since they spend so much of their lives there.

SOG, it depends entirely on the area whether or not schools are easy to bring a gun to. I would have no trouble whatsoever bringing a gun into my former high school. Actually somebody did once, and nobody ever knew. I know several people who brought in other assorted weapons as well. The mall here would be much more difficult to sneak a weapon into.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

...it's obvious that school shootings are caused by mental illness...

Which mental illnesses?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Any mental illness which can cause violence, perturbed thought processes, etc. Schizophrenia is a pretty good one, but fairly uncommon afaik. I'm pretty sure autism could be one as well, but autistic kids are much less likely to be "violent", they're just not social.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

And which school shooters had which mental illnesses?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I'm pretty sure Cho had some kind of illness, perhaps autism. I dunno, I gave up this debate mainly because it's going to be impossible to conclusively decide upon and I'm not wasting my time anymore tbh.

The Wiki article about Seung-Hui Cho is extremely informative and rich with detailed information, as well as nice sources. I suggest you check up on it. He was definitely a fucked up kid before he entered school.

 

[The Ozzman]

Isn't it possible that maybe the person was just merely pissed off rather than they had a mental illness?

Also: shouldn't this be in the social forum?

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Pissed off sane people find constructive ways to deal with their problems, by the way.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I'm pretty sure Cho had some kind of illness, perhaps autism.

The wiki article doesn't exactly endorse this theory.

He was definitely a fucked up kid before he entered school.

Social anxiety = "fucked up kid"? The Wiki article tells the story of a kid with social anxiety issues that were exacerbated by the school system.

Pissed off sane people find constructive ways to deal with their problems, by the way.

I really find your approach sad. We will solve this issue by understanding the individuals and the situation, not be demonizing and name-calling. You have to assume people act rationally at all times if you want to determine the factors that affect their actions.

 

[CAIRATH]

It's going to be closed soon anyway.

Why do you always close discussion/debate threads for no particularly well established reason (other than that it is your personal opinion that they should)? Let the discussion go on for those who want to continue (even if you have "given up" or think it has become pointless) and eventually the thread is just going to die and drop off the front page just like every other thread does. There is no need to constantly step in and remind everyone that you can close threads. Moderators are there to remove content that violates the forum regulations and otherwise enforce forum rules (and do so in the "spirit" of the rules rather than enforcing them to the letter), not to constantly meddle unnecessarily in user discussions just because they can.

 

[skeptik]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm pretty sure most school shooters have been diagnosed with some form of neurosis or mental deficiency of some kind that separates them from the rest of the public.

 

[cookiecutter]

Well I don't know man, these shooters tend to think that the schools might be a major cause of why they shoot schools, I'm just basing this on what they say. Schools are abundantly obvious targets for minors since they spend so much of their lives there.

This is kind of my point. They spend a majority of their lives in school, and this is where they receive the social contact which is usually the reason cited by the shooters for their actions. I don't think this is a problem with the school system, but with the fact that people are awful to each other, and it is only worse if you are different in some way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the schools shooters have not written manifestos blaming the structure of the school system. Their anger is pointed towards people who bullied them or in Cho's case the "rich kids".

 

[skeptik]

TBH the social element of the schools is part of the school just as much as are the classes.

 

[Mort Divine]

Social anxiety = "fucked up kid"? The Wiki article tells the story of a kid with social anxiety issues that were exacerbated by the school system.

Are you fucking kidding me? Social anxiety?

Social anxiety is an experience of fear, apprehension or worry regarding social situations and being evaluated by others.

This doesn't cause people to shoot up schools, this causes people like me to try and avoid being put into social situations - to avoid people oneself isn't familiar with - to keep to themselves not to snap and shoot people.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I really find your approach sad. We will solve this issue by understanding the individuals and the situation, not be demonizing and name-calling. You have to assume people act rationally at all times if you want to determine the factors that affect their actions.

I'm glad you didn't understand what I said at all, and forgot that on I think the first page I actually said that we should do what you are implying here; personal understanding will be the only thing which helps people I believe, in these cases.

@CAIRATH: I didn't see you for 5 pages anywhere, so it's odd that you would even complain; I do understand that not everyone is privileged enough to sit around on UMGMD forever erk, so apologies if that is the case...anyway, it seemed like we rather reached a nice conclusion (a multitude of factors causes these things and it can never be conclusively known what causes them and how to prevent them because it depends on individual circumstances) half a page ago, so excuse me for attempting to end on a decent note instead of the conversation (d)evolving into petty ad hominems which it likely will do eventually. As long as the discussion continues in a (rather) forward motion and is not just circular argumentation, it will stay open.

@Nec: Yes, the social element of schools is "part" of the school, but not something directly influenced by how the school is run. You can't get rid of peer pressure; it's human nature. I can understand wanting to fix schools, but I just do not really see how the CURRICULAR (fixable) part of schools can cause these kids to be problematic (or disaffected, if it's a better word ). I understand also that workload, asshole teachers, and other parts of schools' actual systems can be problematic, shitty, or corrupt, but I still fail to see how more people would not shoot up schools if what you are saying is conclusively true. This problem is quite multi-faceted and I don't think there is a definitive way to solve it. As I have consistently been saying, formica's (joking) "solution" would be to just forget solving the problem and turn our cheeks to something that is more easily solvable which will salvage more lives based on statistics; drunk driving, and other easily solvable problems.

 

[skeptik]

Why are you so surprised that a highly abnormal and extreme occurrence that is the result of an amalgamation of unique characteristic influences that vary from person to person doesn't happen more often? What we should be looking at is why it happens at all and to attempt to work toward (despite however unreachable the goal may be) preventing such actions altogether.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I'm not really surprised, I'm just standing by my point which is that one thing has more influence over the other, and the one thing, to me, is mental sickness. It really is not surprising, but on the other hand, aren't you agreeing that it really isn't a blanket of "the institution!111!" causing these things? I think we should altogether drop that argument in any case, since it has now been proven mostly irrelevant, shallow, and very much a quick fix.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Are you fucking kidding me? Social anxiety?

This doesn't cause people to shoot up schools, this causes people like me to try and avoid being put into social situations - to avoid people oneself isn't familiar with - to keep to themselves not to snap and shoot people.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with.

I'm glad you didn't understand what I said at all, and forgot that on I think the first page I actually said that we should do what you are implying here; personal understanding will be the only thing which helps people I believe, in these cases.

Yet you continue to demonize the deviant. What does this have to do with understanding the situation?

it seemed like we rather reached a nice conclusion (a multitude of factors causes these things and it can never be conclusively known what causes them and how to prevent them because it depends on individual circumstances)

This is idiotic. How can you saw we'll never know when we have barely tried to find out? Social science has learned a lot; where once people like you dismissed social deviants like (for example) Jim Jones or David Koresh as insane, irrational, etc. we now know a great deal about the factors, both internal and exogenous that led to their actions. I don't see any reason why we can't reach similar understandings in relation to the school shooting phenomena.

@Nec: Yes, the social element of schools is "part" of the school, but not something directly influenced by how the school is run. You can't get rid of peer pressure; it's human nature. I can understand wanting to fix schools, but I just do not really see how the CURRICULAR (fixable) part of schools can cause these kids to be problematic (or disaffected, if it's a better word ).

You don't have much of an imagination. Changing the curriculum would be barely scratching the surface of the changes that could be made.