Syllables.

[koalamo]

I saw a few threads touch on this before but never really in depth so I was wondering, how do you guys generally break down vocal sections. Do you record whole phrases and then comp the best takes or do you record in smaller sections and only select good takes

I read in one thread joey kind of touched on this but it wasn't enough information for me to really pick up on for example if someone was saying

"You will die because you are a douche bag" like would you have them split that


"you will die because"

then new take

"You are a douchebag"


and if you do this how do you make it sound convincing because I find that whenever I have a vocalist do it like this they'll hold the last word out slightly longer than it should be and then when they go to do the next part it overlaps the first.


And when I comp takes in whole phrases it doesn't sound like one consistent take i.e you can tell it was comped.


Just curious how you guys do this. I've watched the multi-platinum videos about editing. Great stuff, just alittle confused on tracking.


Any input?

 

[Zento]

A lot of the time I'll get the vocalist to start a word early so I can get a natural transition between them.

 

[ahjteam]

I try to get as long sections from the same take and then edit that, as the singer position and vocal style can vary so much that the change is noticeable.

 

[koalamo]

I try to get as long sections from the same take and then edit that, as the singer position and vocal style can vary so much that the change is noticeable.

So you try and do the longest takes possible?

Usually when I tell the guy we can break it down into sections he'll act as if I'm absolutely insane asking him to do anything more than like one phrase at a time....



But I suppose that makes sense thats probably why comping sounds so unnatural to me.

 

[JeffTD]

Do multiple takes of each and have them overlap the phrasings so you can splice them together while still sounding natural, kind of like how you'd play 'out of' and 'in to' the riff you're recording on guitar to make punch-ins sound more natural.

 

[ahjteam]

So you try and do the longest takes possible?

Yup. First I record the full song so I have approximate estimate where stuff should be, then fix takes of full parts (like verses, then choruses etc)

With timeline I try to keep as long passages as possible. A full line, ending with a break or a breather is a good place to cut. If the take otherwise is superior in emotion but the tuning only slightly off, you can autotune/melodyne them later. But coldly just discard really off key stuff (unless you are going for 100% emotion), as pitch fixing them usually sounds awfully unnatural. I find that about 2-4 semitones off depending on the syllable is the limit that still can be fixed to really naturally sounding result. Otherwise just re-record.

 

[koalamo]

Do multiple takes of each and have them overlap the phrasings so you can splice them together while still sounding natural, kind of like how you'd play 'out of' and 'in to' the riff you're recording on guitar to make punch-ins sound more natural.

Sorry jeff do you mind explaining that alittle more I don't really follow probably cuz its 3 am here and I'm alittle out of it

what do you mean by overlap? have the last word of one phrase overlap the first word of the next phrase and just crossfade them?

And by multiple takes do you mean have the guy do the same phrase a few times and comp the best parts???

Yup. First I record the full song so I have approximate estimate where stuff should be, then fix takes of full parts (like verses, then choruses etc)

With timeline I try to keep as long passages as possible. A full line, ending with a break or a breather is a good place to cut. If the take otherwise is superior in emotion but the tuning only slightly off, you can autotune/melodyne them later. But coldly just discard really off key stuff (unless you are going for 100% emotion), as pitch fixing them usually sounds awfully unnatural. I find that about 2-4 semitones off depending on the syllable is the limit that still can be fixed to really naturally sounding result. Otherwise just re-record.

I generally will cut up the vocals and align the individual words to the kick drum the multi-platinum protools dvds show some really great tips for doing this and making it sound extremely natural though in cubase i'll admit it is alot harder because you can't time stretch in the arranger window well there is that selection applies time stretch thing but it always sounds like shit to me.

But definitely good advice none the less, especially the tuning thing just recorded a whole chorus today and started tuning it before i realized the whole thing was completely flat. I don't know how I missed it!

 

[ahjteam]

I generally will cut up the vocals and align the individual words to the kick drum

Why? To kill even the last bit of soul from the music?

 

[AudioGeekZine]

"You will die because you are a douche bag"

would be a phrase and I wouldn't punch on anything smaller than that. I usually have the singer go through the entire song 3 times, choose the best bits and do more takes of smaller sections we're not happy with. So a phrase that size may have 3-10 takes. I always do the comping with the vocalist there and get his input on what's the best.

"You will die|because|you are a|douche bag"
I would chop it up when comping into smaller sections like that and find the best of each take if one take wasn't clearly better than all the rest.

 

[koalamo]

Why? To kill even the last bit of soul from the music?

I think everything just has a greater impact when it sits right with the kick drum but that's just my opinion I usually do it more so during a breakdown or something really rhythmic or if somethings pretty off I just thinks it's pretty awesome how seamlessly you can cut up certain things

"You will die because you are a douche bag"

would be a phrase and I wouldn't punch on anything smaller than that. I usually have the singer go through the entire song 3 times, choose the best bits and do more takes of smaller sections we're not happy with. So a phrase that size may have 3-10 takes. I always do the comping with the vocalist there and get his input on what's the best.

"You will die|because|you are a|douche bag"
I would chop it up when comping into smaller sections like that and find the best of each take if one take wasn't clearly better than all the rest.

I really like this actually but I don't know why whenever I comp something like that (cutting up the words the way you described) it never sounds like a congruent take to me I don't know why but it will always sounds off

 

[MetalSound]

"You will die because you are a douche bag"

wow, THAT is evil!!! LMAO

 

[Mago]

Depends on the singer and what you aim for soundwise
For some growl or faster singing parts it can sound cool if its audible that it are different takes.
Some singers want to focus on smaller parts and get those down before moving on to the rest, and others want to do it 10x and you pick out the best ones

 

[crillemannen]

Do multiple takes of each and have them overlap the phrasings so you can splice them together while still sounding natural, kind of like how you'd play 'out of' and 'in to' the riff you're recording on guitar to make punch-ins sound more natural.

+ 1


Do different takes on the whole phrase and the take the best parts. If it sounds un-natural then just do another take until it sounds good.
Use your ears man

 

[koalamo]

+ 1

Do different takes on the whole phrase and the take the best parts. If it sounds un-natural then just do another take until it sounds good.
Use your ears man

<3 could someone just explain the overlapping thing that's the only thing that's throwing me off

And does anyone know a good way to comp takes on cubase 5 because I think the lane system is complete garbage
I usually just make multiple tracks

 

[crillemannen]

It means that you can cut out say 2 words from one take and then take other words from another take. Just crossfade and listen to the results

 

[AudioGeekZine]

<3 could someone just explain the overlapping thing that's the only thing that's throwing me off

And does anyone know a good way to comp takes on cubase 5 because I think the lane system is complete garbage
I usually just make multiple tracks

Lanes are the way to go, comping is very easy, just separate and mute what you don't want to hear.

The problem with doing it in multiple tracks is you need Xmany more plugins for every track to get them to sound the same. You'll want them all on 1 track at some point.

The overlapping thing is just that the singer can't just start on the word you want to punch in, he needs to say a few words leading up to it or you won't ever be able to get something usable.
You need to say the word 'douchebag' even if you want to just keep 'bag'

 

[JeffTD]

Like the others said.. just have him sing a couple words extra at the end and beginning, so that the takes "overlap" and then cut the bad syllables out. That way you get a natural transition because he was singing the phrase the whole way through as far as your overlap point is concerned, but you don't waste breath on the words at the very beginning/end of the lines.

 

[koalamo]

Lanes are the way to go, comping is very easy, just separate and mute what you don't want to hear.

The problem with doing it in multiple tracks is you need Xmany more plugins for every track to get them to sound the same. You'll want them all on 1 track at some point.

The overlapping thing is just that the singer can't just start on the word you want to punch in, he needs to say a few words leading up to it or you won't ever be able to get something usable.
You need to say the word 'douchebag' even if you want to just keep 'bag'

Is there a specific way to set up lanes like do you have the guy literally do one full take of the whole song because everytime you go to record a new take it puts it on a new lane and the track gets huge and then I find it extremely hard to navigate what I do now is make like maybe 5 tracks and then record the same phrase on each separate track than I'll go through and cut up each one, take the best parts and put them all on one track then fade.

Like the others said.. just have him sing a couple words extra at the end and beginning, so that the takes "overlap" and then cut the bad syllables out. That way you get a natural transition because he was singing the phrase the whole way through as far as your overlap point is concerned, but you don't waste breath on the words at the very beginning/end of the lines.

Oh okay so basically just have him do like the whole phrase or something and then go back and redo the parts where would break it up individually ?

So like you'd have him do:

You will die because

Then

Because you are a douchebag

Then you replace the because of the first take with the because from the second take

 

[iHate]

For fuck's sake, learn to sing or tell the singer to learn to sing.

But yea, just have the singer keep going so you can fade in easily. It's not rokit science.

 

[Terminus]

In Reaper you can just keep recording onto one track over and over and it'll separate the 'takes' or 'lanes' so you can see all of them stacked on top of each other, then you split phrases or words apart and comp those that are the best. Done. You may have to crossfade as the person goes from one word to another and you needed to splice two diff takes together, usually if it's in the middle of a phrase or something.