Symphony X: Trouble in Paradise

I STRONGLY DISAGREE THAT FACT.U SHOULD THINK 100000000000000 TIMES BEFORE POSTING THIS TYPE OF THREAD ABOUT THE BAND.THE BAND IS VERY MUCH CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.MAY BE U HAVE LIMITATION S.SO TRY TO IDENTYFY THOSE LIMITATIONS.
 
And everyone will now take you seriously because you posted in all caps.

But a serious response to that post, and please read this slowly and take it all in:
If anyone makes any form of art and puts it out there for the general public to see, it will be criticized. I'm sure the guys in the band aren't crying because some people here don't think the album is perfect.
 
I STRONGLY DISAGREE THAT FACT.U SHOULD THINK 100000000000000 TIMES BEFORE POSTING THIS TYPE OF THREAD ABOUT THE BAND.THE BAND IS VERY MUCH CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.MAY BE U HAVE LIMITATION S.SO TRY TO IDENTYFY THOSE LIMITATIONS.

First, could you NOT type all in caps please.
Second, it would be nice if you quoted what you were replying to.

Thanks!
 
@Dynamh : you said you feel bored when you listen to the whole album at once...if so..listen to some britney spears songs between each track of this awesome album PL! try it and tell me what you experience!! LOL

j/k of course
 
SYx.Amine -- haha, yes! There's the solution I've been looking for! ;-)

But to the point, it's definitely not "boredom" that I'm discussing here. The album is far from boring in my opinion. The critical point that some of my detractors are missing, however, is that I'm referring to a process that occurs outside of consciousness. My post refers to a conflict between desperately wanting to listen to the music, and knowing in my mind that the songs are good and that I like them, but simultaneously feeling averse to listening to the whole album. That's really why I wrote the article--due to the fact that for some mysterious reason, I was feeling "fatigued" after listening to it. Aural Fatigue as a concept seems a more than logical explanation for these symptoms. It's not about being averse to heavy stuff! I grew up with Napalm Death, Carcass, Vader, Cannibal Corpse, etc.. ;-)
 
Actually, I agree with you Dynamh. This last cd is awesome, but for some reason it is not like the others... and your explanation seems to explains it. Very nice thread.
 
Good discussion. I agree with the aural fatigue theory, I have trouble listening to PL, The Odyssey and to a lesser extent V the entire way through. I enjoy most of the songs on these albums (The Odyssey has a few wekaer moments IMO, but thats just me as a fan) on their own, but when I listen to these albums beginning to end I get a bit tired after 5 or 6 songs and I need to change to something else. This is not the case with Divine Wings and Twilight, I can listen to these albums all the way through.

Its definitely not a case of their recent albums being too heavy or me not liking metal, I listen to everything from Sonata Arctica and Iron Maiden to Nile, Cephalic Carnage, Necrophagist, Strapping, Gojira and Cannibal Corpse so I know heaviness or intensity is not the problem. Granted I find the two recent albums to be less interesting than earlier works because I prefer the dynamic songwriting of the earlier albums, but I still love the modern stuff and I wish that I could sit through The Odyssey and Paradise Lost the entire way through more regularly because the quality of the music is excellent.

Fan problem, off topic: not really digging the guitar tone as much as on earlier efforts, doesn't sound as natural as before, and not saying that Mike has become a bad player or anything, but I definately prefer the days when he wasn't constantly shredding with his foot on the wah-wah pedal all the time, where's the beautifully constructed solo's like that in Church Of the Machine and Through The Looking Glass?
 
Yeah... Good discussion TOO BAD IT'S TWO YEARS OLD, HUH?

I guess it's still their latest album, höhöhö. I agree with the OP. The production gave it too much noise, like that thing about that Metallica album, except this is a band that is still good. Terrible shame.
dynamh said:
It is not necessary to squash the waveforms to this extent to make Symphony X rock. They already DO.

The end result is a great CD that I have almost no desire to listen to.
Sums it up.
 
One of the most interesting thread ever. I like every song of PD but I can't listen it in its entirety. It is interesting that people is getting involved in sound production. I also read something similar about Death Magnetic.
 
This is somewhat of a stretch on the concept of aural fatigue.

Aural fatigue occurs in one of two ways: amplitude based, and frequency based.

amplitude based fatigue occurs when you are listening to something too loud for too long and your ears finally start filtering out details. If I recall correctly it is because the cilia which vibrate to define all the sound characteristics are over-vibrated and cannot handle the amount of atm pressure involved. As a result, finer details get muddy, and you would be unable to hear well if you turned to a lower volume because everything in those lower amplitudes was overwhelmed. However, this would not really have to do with compression, it would have to do with how loud you have chosen to listen to the CD as a whole, which is completely in your own control. Dynamics wouldn't really do all too much to alter this - if you go to a heavy metal show, they pause between songs, but it is not as if those intermittent periods keep your ears from ringing and everything sounding funny when you leave.

Frequency based fatigue is similar to the mention in the article of listening to a sine wave from an extended period. Hearing one particular frequency for an extended period of time results in the cilia essentially saying 'I really do not want to vibrate at this frequency any longer'. It's similar to when you stare at one color for a long time and then you look away and see the opposite - you've fatigued those particular optical receptors to the point that they can't deal with the color anymore. Compression would have nothing to do with this because frequency (pitch) varies based on the composition and has nothing to do with compression (which operates on amplitude).

The type of aural fatigue mentioned here is more of a general, long lasting fatigue that occurs not just because of compression, but when you are getting similar instrumental density or similar tone colors between songs. In other words, the fact that every song employs heavy thick guitar is just as much to blame as the compression - if they filtered in a tune on banjo and washtub here and there it would be a lot less fatiguing.

Still, this general fatigue is so minor compared to the other two, and should not be confused with them. For comparison, if you were at the gym, amplitude fatigue would be like if you were lifting too great a mass and hurt your arms so you could not continue working out with that muscle without pain and reduced success. Frequency fatigue would be like doing way too many reps on one machine until those muscles quit working well for the rest of the day. This general fatigue spoken of in relation to compression is more like when you've been working out for a couple hours and your body sort of generally says 'hey, let's take a break, eat some food, recharge the batteries'. It is far less immediate/long lasting/intense than the other two. If you hurt your arm lifting you are sidelined for a couple days, if you need a break from working out in general though, you're often ready to go again in less than an hour.

My point is, over-compression is not an issue because of aural fatigue - it's an issue because it kills off a valuable asset of musical effectiveness - dynamics. When used correctly, dynamics are extremely effective in creating a varied and emotionally powerful atmosphere. Just listen to Debussy's La Mer - there are elements of that piece that are extremely subtle but add a ton en masse. Furthermore crescendos and diminuendos lose their effectiveness. Orchestras have 10 levels of volume dynamics available from pppp to ffff. If you compress everything, all the attention to these levels is lost.

There are NO CDs released with hard clip digital distortion as the article states. hard clip distortion results in clicks, pops, and hiccups - no one likes it and everyone makes sure that does not get into completed CDs. As for soft clip distortion, lets not forget that soft clip distortion is the entire basis for distorted guitar tone. People have been using soft clip distortion for ages, in fact that is why some people prefer analog to digital, because the medium results in some soft clip distortion and makes things sound warmer/more saturated.

Be aware when you read articles that the person writing the article is not just out to do the world a service - he has a job and he's trying to put together a very partisan piece because those are more interesting to read. Everything is going to end up with a slant, tons of information will be omitted. Saying something as incendiary as 'every CD is causing aural fatigue!' will garner more readers than 'there are pros and cons to compression'. It is important to do your own research and be realistic about WHY people are writing what they are writing.
 
In that huge wall of text you managed to describe exactly why I don't care for PL all too much :P

I have always made my voice heard about what had drawn me into SyX from the beginning; their dynamic music playing style. They seemed to of started losing it in The Odyssey while almost totally losing it in PL. I think a lot of the people here that think the reason that they can't listen to PL all the way through or a whole lot in general because of "aural fatigue" are deceiving themselves. I truly think they don't realize how bland overcompressed music is, especially with a band who's music before was quite dynamic. It is not the waveforms tiring your ears/brain, it is the boring chuga chuga overcompressed music boring you because most of the songs (save the slower ballad songs) sound generally the same.
 
^ And that is pretty much why I like Oculus the most and wish it was a long/complete musical piece instead of just a prelude.
But then all those kids would come on forums crying "ZOMG!! this isn't metal!!".

I was happy with PL when I first got it, but I remember very well that one of my first reactions was saying I can't listen to the whole album at once. Too loud/compressed for what I'd expect from SymX.

I completely agree that a good and well-explored dynamic range is an essential part of an expressive musical piece. Not just in terms of production/mastering, but also the composition itself.

Just listen to tracks like Communion and the Oracle, The Accolade, The Edge of Forever, Shades of Grey.

The tracks in PL lacked a good dynamic range, except for Oculus, the title track, and The Sacrifice.