Systematic Mixing Series #1: Poking Holes in High-Gain Guitars
- Thread starter Ermz
- Start date
KHE
Member
or a smaller room with /good/ acoustic-treatment (helmholzresonators to tame the room-modes) and good, strategic placement of the cab.
Thanks ermin, very intressting to read!!
regards, markus
Thanks ermin, very intressting to read!!
regards, markus
Resonators only come in handy with larger rooms - that's the irony. In smaller rooms there are so many nodes and valleys, packed so tightly to each other, that broadband absorption is the only sensible choice. There usually isn't even enough space to include a resonator for the lowest sub resonance node.
It's just an acoustics thing. The more volume you have to play with in your room, the better everything will sound. The smaller your room, the harder pressed you are to do everything.
It's just an acoustics thing. The more volume you have to play with in your room, the better everything will sound. The smaller your room, the harder pressed you are to do everything.
MarcusGHedwig
Member
Emdprodukt
Member of Dude Castle 69
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
This, but throw in some of the boosts that Colin Richardson mentioned in that thread he started 2-3 (maybe 4?) years back.
I think it has a big part to do in how centric the instrument is in your mixing style, as Ermz usually mixes far less guitar-centric than the Sneap, Richardsen, Fredman, Suecof, etc crowd.
KHE
Member
this is true. but it is possible to get the "decay-time" / modes (don`t know how this is called in english) of a small room to a acceptable level.
for example the pre-post-measurments of our recording-rehearsall-space:ca. 6,5m x 5m x 3,8m, fitted with 4 helmholzresonators with nearly 300l volume each at strategic-places with exactly calculated frequencies and bandwith (all calculated by a professional acoustican).
without helmis:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5298811/RoomTreatment/BilderReviewMika/15_klein.jpg
with helmis:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5298811/RoomTreatment/BilderReviewMika/16_klein.jpg
just to show that it is possible to treat a small not-so-good room to a pretty good one
takes some time and costs to do it, but it is definitly worth the effort best greetings from switzerland,
markus
Soundlurker
Member
- Nov 19, 2005
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Shortening the decay time is good but you're still left with a less than ideal frequency response. I'd say the room you quoted could certainly work for guitars but a 3x3x3m will be a nightmare whatever you do.
I don't see a difference between the two approaches, personally.
I'm certainly not advocating over-processing guitars - quite the contrary. The goal is always to achieve a nice raw tone, so that as little processing as possible is necessary to seat it - this much is self evident.
The part where you may have become confused and separated the approach I wrote about is where I advocate tracking a 'larger' guitar sound. I don't mean disproportionately larger, but simply enough to make the bulk of your mix work subtraction, rather than addition, as guitars always seem to seat better this way.
One thing we do agree on is that very few people are indeed able to achieve those sorts of results. I've used dozens of reamp services over the last 4 or 5 years, and that type of minimalist mix processing has never been possible with them. In fact the only time it was, was when I was tracking guitars in a very well treated, professional, sizable live space with high-end gear, all the way, and using my old approach of spending ~2 to 3 hours positioning the mic. Even so, only a select combination of guitars/amps/players were capable of delivering raws conducive to that approach. It's something worth striving for, absolutely, but extremely difficult, especially under the less-than-ideal circumstances most who read the guide will be operating. As such it's necessary to cover all types of guitar processing in-depth, as the vast majority of people will be dealing with far less than ideal raw tracks.
SimonTaddio_Qc
Headbanger
Very cool read, well written and wisely thought out.
Just sayin, maybe it could be moved in the production tips sub, and sticky'd?
Just sayin, maybe it could be moved in the production tips sub, and sticky'd?
Brett - K A L I S I A
Dreaded Moderator
Don't over estimate the size of the room when tracking guitars. Seriously, the microphone is a few centimeters from the source, the room has an extremely low impact on the sound you'll capture. Plus, 10x10 m is, in my opinion and I'm sorry to say, ridiculous. Nobody has such a huge room. Andy's tracking room is not that big, Nordstrom used to mic cabs in a very small wooden room, and I don't think their tones suffered from that whatsoever...
zver
Member
nice treat man thanks you helped me so much. im recording now album with one band and this weekend im going to track the guitars but the room is so small maybe 2X2 is it posible to get good tone in room like that?!
10m2 was probably overstating it, but I'd personally try to avoid tracking 4x12s in any rooms smaller than 5m2. My own space is about 3x3 and even with extremely heavy low-end treatment, I could still hear the cab exciting resonances here and there.
Unlike many guys who have their own dedicated space, I'm also a freelancer. So I've tracked cabs in dozens of different spaces, with different levels of treatment. The one consistent factor is that larger rooms have always created less resonance problems for me than the smaller ones. The smaller the room, the more those problems creep up into higher frequencies, eating up into tone space. Just a consistent personal experience.
Spiritbeast
Noob-in-training
- Mar 14, 2011
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This is awesome. I appreciate the talented engineers on this site who offer help to the less experienced.
I'll be using modeled guitars, so not all of this is relevant, but I'm sure some of it will be.
Thank you. Definitely looking forward to the drums ... I saw you posting the idea of doubling with the ambience from S2.0. I will definitely play around with that.
I'll be using modeled guitars, so not all of this is relevant, but I'm sure some of it will be.
Thank you. Definitely looking forward to the drums ... I saw you posting the idea of doubling with the ambience from S2.0. I will definitely play around with that.
drew_drummer
Dancefap
Ermz, any thoughts on actual cab placement within a room, and using thick acoustic foam to handle the room acoustics bleeding into the mic cap?
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
I honestly think that as long as you're not tracking guitars in a small or closet that you're probably going to get better results by playing with mic placement/choice, amp settings, pickups, etc than by immediately blaming the room, as long as you've got some kind of decent treatment in their or a deadish sounding room to begin with. Some of the best, most 'professional' tones I've heard have been done in tiny vocal booths, guest bedrooms with sofa cushions around the cab, in an average band rehearsal space with bass traps and foam surrounding the cab, etc...
I'm not saying that large rooms don't help or making things easier, but it's definitely behind player, amp, and cabinet on my list of things to take care of.
I'm not saying that large rooms don't help or making things easier, but it's definitely behind player, amp, and cabinet on my list of things to take care of.
