taking of ones own life

[razoredge]

Well I'll try my own post for a change. Spurred by... Today, the brother of one of my past girlfriends took his life. He was around 50 and had a life of success but alot of drug and alcohol abuse. With the loss of the girl of his favor quite a few years back he went slowly downhill and lost his well paying employment and well it just snowballed for quite a few years now.

But that is this particular scenerio, just to explain why I make such a post.

Regardless the scenerio how do others view taking ones own life. I know most seem to say a cop out, a weakness, lame, coward, ect. Myself I dont feel this way, I believe a threshold can be met where one does not see any possible silver lining and is in essence relieving their agony. I also feel at this time one has to consider those they will be leaving in anguish by such an action and perhaps in this find strenght to pull it together.

 

[psychobitch]

I personally can understand why someone would want to take their own life. There's many reasons, in the end, at least half of the people who die end up dying because someone took them off life support, because their life would be complete agony with all of their organs failing, sufferring, this is how my mother died.
In Christianity ( I don't know what part of the bible) people say you will go to hell.
I've had a few friends kill themselves, One of my friends hung himself after finding out he had testicular cancer. Does anybody agree with what he had done, well nobody wanted to see him go, but that was his choice, and he had many problems in his life, although he was only like 24 years old.
I've overdosed on drugs before, and had problems with them, trying to take my own life but there is really no easy way to do it. I've seen someone with a gunshot wound to the side of his head in the hospital, and his mother had to take him off life support, but he was still sitting alive for hours, imagine that.
I don't know how else to say it, but when it comes down to people trying to overdose on drugs, I don't see an easy way to do that, having the abundance of chemicals to go out in a state of bliss is whats difficult in obtaining, and hanging, well that fucking hurts so if you're able to pull yourself off of that rope, you most likely will do so if you don't want to endure the pain.

 

[Seditious]

I have few qualms about calling it weak/cowardly/etc. (I've looked down that barrel plenty of times myself to not just be saying it from arrogance), but I also find there to be no good argument for what would be intelligent about being "tough" and enduring a life unwanted. it's like being "brave" for a war you didn't want to wage in the first place, you're crossing the line of bravery and stupidity at that point, it's a kind of vanity and thus an implicit weakness of its own, rather less respectable--for if one is to do what is weak, better he sides with his own estimations of value than those of another, when he does so.

as for 'those they leave behind', we have no responsibility to make others happy, or to, like a slave, live for their sake, such is clear enough by the fact they don't live for our sake, and the selfishness some people display about suicide in that regard is just vile hypocrisy.

 

[Seditious]

In Christianity ( I don't know what part of the bible) people say you will go to hell.
.

These days the only damn thing you can say about Christianity is 'Jesus is important'. There are brands of Christianity where you can support animal use, support veganism, support abortion, oppose abortion, obey the pope, disobey the pope, be forgiven, not be forgiven, go to hell, go to non-existence rather than hell, go to heaven no matter what you did.. and on it goes in 30,000 combinations of buffet nonsense.

and hanging, well that fucking hurts so if you're able to pull yourself off of that rope, you most likely will do so if you don't want to endure the pain.

there are other forms of asphixiation which 'hurt' no more than drowning. friend of a friend was found peacefully sitting on his couch dead after suicide that route.

 

[derek]

Hume's On Suicide is pretty much how I feel, although a dash of Schopenhauer balances it out.

 

[forbidden fruit]

Up until a few years ago, I was one of those you mentioned who viewed suicide as pure selfishness... something for the weak willed... leaving their misery at the feet of those who loved them.

While I'm not all for it these days, I can better understand how when all hope, & hope of happiness leaves ones life, it really makes the rest of ones existence just that, existence.
That wouldn't be enough for me, so I could no longer begrudge another finding it not enough for them.

The 2 biggest hurdles I would face if I were to contemplate such a thing, would be;
1. Is the likelihood that I will never think & feel differently such that I would put my loved ones through this?
2. Given the highly unlikely, bordering on miraculous, event of my existence to begin with, do I really want to pass up the opportunity to explore all possibilities in favour of potential non-existence.

 

[razoredge]

you kind of confused me Seditious, "no quams about calling it" and then you also seem to understand it. I guess its possible to see it both ways.
Bravery would be the wrong word but somehow it seems it would take serious commitment to carry out so I dont see it as being weak or cowardly. I had a rough past 4 years, not related to drugs or any mental or health illness and can not believe the thoughts I have had but in the end it boiled down to still "being needed", concerned about impact on my people and just plain chicken... lol. I'm glad I looked at the full picture with consideration and am now FINALLY moveing my life forward with optimism. Learning to Live as the DT song goes.

In biblical regards, same as anything else written in the bible, they were written to give people cause for consideration to avoid wrong doing. Imagine the suicide rate the bible would have promoted otherwise. "Im sick of this shit and suffering, I'll just off myself and go to heaven and things will be glorious" So NO, there was a need to write the "you'll go to hell, clause".

Now today we have to consider the fact that there will be NOTHING. I have fearful visions along the lines of an Astronaut working outside a ship that breaks away from his cable and floats out into the nothingness of space, fully conscience. With my luck that would be the scenerio. Me alone with nothing but my thoughts... shear torture. But in reality it would be nothing, dead, not even sleep, just a fried light bulb in the bottom of a landfill.

So while I understand the whole thing all too well, I think its good for one to consider the entire final scenerio and find a way to enjoy their short go at this thing we call life. In the end you become a name and memory on your people, then as they pass there is nothing left but perhaps a headstone if you go that route. So yeah... today and every day forward counts.

This girls brother(s) I was not particularly fond of, they were off the hook and way too wrapped up in the drug and party culture and drug their younger sister down the toilet with them, thus why she is a past girlfriend. I've seen plenty of head cases in my day 20 some years ago. thus also explaining my views on the drug topic of late. This brother has been a train wreck in process for years so its no real surprise to myself and Im sure many others, but I know she will be in some tough shape due to it as well as her past history with the hard partying and psychological damage that comes from such abuse of the mind and screwing up of ones life. Apparently he drank antifreeze...... (so the hearsay goes)

 

[razoredge]

Hume's On Suicide is pretty much how I feel, although a dash of Schopenhauer balances it out.

So does this mean I have to look this all up and read a few books to know "what the hell you are talking about" ?

 

[razoredge]

Up until a few years ago, I was one of those you mentioned who viewed suicide as pure selfishness... something for the weak willed... leaving their misery at the feet of those who loved them.

While I'm not all for it these days, I can better understand how when all hope, & hope of happiness leaves ones life, it really makes the rest of ones existence just that, existence.
That wouldn't be enough for me, so I could no longer begrudge another finding it not enough for them.

The 2 biggest hurdles I would face if I were to contemplate such a thing, would be;
1. Is the likelihood that I will never think & feel differently such that I would put my loved ones through this?
2. Given the highly unlikely, bordering on miraculous, event of my existence to begin with, do I really want to pass up the opportunity to explore all possibilities in favour of potential non-existence.

Exactly, I know children of parents who took their lives and the impact on them is horrible and irreversable, so in effect this does bring the selfishness factor into the picture.

Of course there are many reasons behind suicide and attempts. I guess Im focusing on the down and out real deal (completed).

 

[Einherjar86]

Killing oneself is the most permanent and definitive action a person can take. There is nothing but certainty in the taking of one's own life.

I think some people find comfort in that certainty. Despite the fact that what happens after death is unknown, if someone is truly resigned to their uselessness and unhappiness with this world, anything might seem better. I can't bring myself to blame people for that.

@Razor
Hume's essay on suicide is really short. You can search it in google and read it.

 

[razoredge]

I'd rather hear dereks essay on taking of ones life... Hume means nothing to me unless he wants to sit down and talk.......

 

[Seditious]

you kind of confused me Seditious, "no quams about calling it" and then you also seem to understand it. I guess its possible to see it both ways.

it's similar to how I will say with pride I'm "selfish", that which wasn't all that popular before Ayn Rand. I don't have to say 'suicide isn't selfish' to justify it, like how some people like to defend acts by denying such an accusation (accusing them of good priorities! hah) and moreover I do agree that it is selfish, but I happen to think selfishness is the proper perspective. As for weak, it is, but it's also weak what many a slave and soldier has done in the face of the enemy... many people, at the same time as calling the suicides weak, will call the 300 Spartians stupid--suicidally brave!--cowardice leading instead to survival would suddenly be respectable to those people who think the cowardice of suicide is so wrong...it offers sufficient reason to question the validity of their judgment, if you don't already have it.

Selfish and weak, that's suicide, but what is wanting is an argument for why selfishness is, or some acts of cowardice are, not wise; an argument for judging negatively such facts. Without that, they who speak ill of such a thing are no better than people scoffing "you're a woman!"...to women, as if that was somehow an insult rather than a fact.

Learning to Live as the DT song goes.

Dark Tranquillity?
Darkthrone?

Now today we have to consider the fact that there will be NOTHING. I have fearful visions along the lines of an Astronaut working outside a ship that breaks away from his cable and floats out into the nothingness of space, fully conscience. With my luck that would be the scenerio. Me alone with nothing but my thoughts... shear torture. .

If I recall rightly, that was Plato's heaven, and Sartre followed it up, remarking 'Hell is other people'.

 

[Seditious]

So does this mean I have to look this all up and read a few books to know "what the hell you are talking about" ?

yep, but if you search on archive.org you can find the relevant texts free (it's not like you have to read whole books. Both Hume and Schopenhauer are well worth reading. ("On Suicide", the third essay in Schopenhauer's Studies in Pessimism, is one he's referring to. Of Hume I'm not sure)

 

[Seditious]

Exactly, I know children of parents who took their lives and the impact on them is horrible and irreversable, so in effect this does bring the selfishness factor into the picture.

let us not forget the selfishness (with which to balance the equation) from which the child was brought into existence in the first place.

 

[Seditious]

I'd rather hear dereks essay on taking of ones life... Hume means nothing to me unless he wants to sit down and talk.......

you're really cheating yourself with that attitude; cheating yourself out of a conversation with the greatest minds of history, and out of a chance to learn from them.

 

[razoredge]

I thought I was the greatest mind in history.... bahahahaha

you think intended conception is selfishness ? always ? I know with some it is, those that take pride as such "I want to have a big family" as #1 importance. As if its an accomplishment or personal property or stature.

regardless its irreversably damaging to a child if mom or pop offs themselves. Other hardships we can work through but that one is devestation.

I have always said heaven and hell was right here on earth. I prefer the heavenly side of it.

No, I dont listen to dark music, my DT is Dream Theater, I've always been into progressive music, as well as jazz, blues and good fun rockin. "Learning to Live" is part of their epic Metropolis from the Images and Words LP of '92.

In my desperate contemplations of "ending it all" I found myself to be totally chicken and felt it would take great effort and bravery to follow though with any of my well thought out plans... lol. I suppose that helped, all the thinkin. In many people its a knee jerk reaction, so more thinkin might shed a better light on the matter.

I dont think its weak in all scenerios, though it is an indication of having been weakened, defeated. I have found with the years that even the strongest can finally be compromised, I would have argued it to death when younger.

At the end of the day, I'll have to agree with the one who indicated tomorrow is worth being around for just to see whats around the corner... because you never know, it could be a utopian paradise... yarite... but just the same.

I dont go for your idea of living a totally selfish life, I enjoy thinking of others and am HUGE on the honor thing. But ultimately succomb to some level of natural selfishness. Lets take sex as example, one of the most gratifing things is pleasing the other... yet in the end... we want to get off too... lol

I will take the time to do some reading of other great minds, such as mine... I suppose.
But still I would like to hear derek or anyone for that matter speak for themselves than adopt the easily accepted reasoning of others, regardless the "greatness"

 

[derek]

I defer to Hume because he's more eloquent than I and certainly more articulate. There is no hiding involved. I suggest your read Hume's "On Suicide". In summary it really only refutes the religious oppositions to suicide and concludes that it is a personal choice.

The Schopenhauer element does not condemn suicide but questions what worth it is. He essentially wonders if the reasoning "ending the current pain by ending the totality" is sensible. The inference being that it does not seem so.

Hume with a dash of Schopenhauer. No need to read now ay, Razoredge?

 

[Einherjar86]

I defer to Hume because he's more eloquent than I and certainly more articulate.

Yeah, but you're talking to razor here. "Eloquent" and "articulate" don't make much difference.

 

[razoredge]

:danceboy:

you both have that right

Im more interested in individual people thats all but thanks for the summary, it seems to coincide with my illerate determinations

 

[I-TEND-TO-DIE]

hahaha! okay everyone thinks my username would have something to do with that
but your wrong!! It's not factual
I just thought it would be a cool name for a forum
though.

but back to topic: well I think even if I'd come in such a situation Iam quiet sure I wouldn't dare to take my life..