Tarja performing nightwish songs: "thoughts?"

[nodoubtaholic]

^Nope, you're not the only one. I think the band is happier without her, she is doing fine on her own, and that's good enough for me. I would rather that they continue on separately but happy, rather than miserably while together.

I very much agree with this. I think it's fine just the way it is, I do feel sad that I was not apart of the "Tarja Era".. but I'm glad I found NW. And as much as I love the Tarja Era, I'm not sure that I would've become AS big of a fan based on her era alone. Coming into the NW fandom - I was not a metal listener (maybe casually), and I'd never even HEARD of symphonic metal. So to hear Tarja on top of the symphonic/metal aspects was almost TOO foreign right off the bat. I don't know if anyone else around here discovered NW during the DPP era, but I didn't delve into Tarja songs until I started really getting into it on youtube and such. I must say though, the End of an Era DVD (I had found it on youtube) is what really cemented the deal for me as a fan. There was no turning back at that point.

 

[St Enigma]

Come to think about it, Tarja never was 100% for the band. She was asked to sing a few songs for Tuomas' and Emppu's CD project without any intention to form a touring band. When Spinefarm decided to rellease the demo CD as it was put together by Tero and Tuomas, Tarja was kind of "dragged" to continue with the project when they added more songs to the re-relese version of AFF. It was a success and soon they were asked to make the next CD and perform live.

Anyhow, in the early years the band toured only when Tarja was available from her studies and other commitments. Especially if you look at years 2001 - 2003 the average gig count was around 30 per year, mainly summertime. Not much for a band who sold hundreds of thousand CDs in Europe alone. They could have toured much more if it wasn't for Tarja's preferences. The guys were at least slightly pissed, but they swallowed it and waited for her graduation in the end of 2003.

Big plans were made for Once, North America and all, and it started well, but in the end of 2004 Marcelo had shown his true face by trying to hi-jack the control of the band from King Foo by using Tarja as a lever. Then T&M decided to drop the second North American tour due in winter 2005 which was the final straw and the start of the count-down for her sacking. Had it been possible, the guys and the management would only had rid of Marcelo, but he was too clever and had kept Tarja out of the band's companywhich was founded in fall 2001 and tied her to himself not only by marriage, but also with a legimite contract which has a clausul keeping it valid until 10 years after their possible divorce. So they both had to go in one blow.

When you think that history, it is clear that Tarja will never come back.

 

[C.]

Wow, I never knew that about the 10 years after a probable divorce clause. Thanks Enigma; you are a wealth of Nightwish information.

 

[St Enigma]

Yes, that is mentioned in The Book also, I think. At least it was mentioned many times in the several interviews with Tuomas and the guys back in 2006. It was one (but not the only) of the important reasons they had to make the sacking in public, immediately after the last concert of the Once tour. It wasn't just the guys being mean, the whole act was planned carefully with lawyers who negotiated and cleared the band's contracts with Nuclear Blast, Spinefarm and maybe Roadrunner (I'm not sure if they only informed RR just before) so they were assured that there wasn't going to be any conflict with the labels when Tarja was ousted.
What I heard later, they all were cheering to Nightwish guys. I guess Marcelo wasn't too popular among the metal folks any more after he had done some fishy things around millenium to many European labels and bands concerning their releases and tours in Latin America.

Marcelo tried to sue Nightwish and King Foo and whoever, but none of his sues ever even reached the court because the band was so well prepeared and had done everything by the paragraphs. The only case Marcelo got up was against Mape Olllila for suggested libel in his book, but he lost it too in the end of 2011 at the higher court.

It all was ugly, but still, what I know about the whole thing, in the end Marcelo got what he called for, IMO. Pity that Tarja had to suffer, but she was very naive about her husband's intentions.

.

 

[C.]

It's been about 3 years since I last read the book, so I can't remember everything.

I do remember the whole issue of Marcelo having this seedy reputation in the metal community already, and about Roadrunner being pissed off as well, etc. I agree with you though, Marcelo's greed always seems to come back to bite him on the ass. You'd think he'd learn by now.

 

[Mooki]

Honestly, Marcelo seems a bit too self-absorbed to actually take a step back, reflect on his actions and re-evaluate his actions. I don't condone everything the Nightwish boys and their management did (I honestly think there were instances where they should have been more aware of Tarja's individual needs), but I remember when trying to read Marcelo's open answers about the incident, I felt quite a bit repulsed. I am aware of the fact that I cannot fully understand a person without actually knowing them personally, but one can get some idea about a person based on how they deal with certain issues and while attempting to read Marcelo's side of the story, I did not get a very good impression of him. I got this vibe that he was very self-absorbed and a little thick; one of those people who does not seem physically capable of understanding that there is something wrong with their behaviour because the fault always lies with the other party, which is anyone who does not do things their way and God forbid, dares to makes criticisms and suggestions. He just seemed so...full of himself, like "huuur duuuur, Tuomas was just being a butthurttard because he was in love with the magnificent Tarja and he waz a jealouz hater because she didn't choose him over me, duuuuur."

 

[C.]

^I definitely agree there; a band is like a marriage, and just like every "divorce", both parties play an equal part in the ultimate failure of the "marriage". I always felt on the guys' end, or at least Tuomas anyway, that communication could have been better and a lot of problems might have been nipped in the bud before they got out of hand if everyone had been able to openly communicate with each other (well, even Tuomas has admitted several times about his having communication problems, so it's not like this is news to anyone, least of all him).

LOL, you hit it right on the head; I tend to think Marcelo is a "master of the obvious", and if something isn't blaring in front of his face with big neon signs pointing to it, he doesn't seem to get it. I personally felt the "Tuomas was in love with Tarja" argument was a little too easy of a cop-out; I'm not saying it wasn't possible, but I also think that sometimes that there are people out there who are so willing to buy into that idea (whether it's because gossip is better than truth, or because the idea gives more romanticism to the music, whatever), that I think Marcelo just figured he'd jump onto that excuse and people would just totally take it on face value. Which to me, kinda backs up Tuomas' statement that Tarja underestimated their fans, because with a cop-out like that, it's clear Marcelo did/does too.

 

[Bianca74]

This is off-topic, but what exactly do people (and Tarja) mean when they say that the guys should have been more aware of her needs? The others had to re-adjust a lot of things that they wanted to have done because Tarja was studying and because she didn't want to play small venues and thus cancelled part of tours. So I'm a bit fuzzy as to what they should have done so that Tarja's needs were met. Just curious.

 

[Oceansoul Troll]

This is off-topic, but what exactly do people (and Tarja) mean when they say that the guys should have been more aware of her needs? The others had to re-adjust a lot of things that they wanted to have done because Tarja was studying and because she didn't want to play small venues and thus cancelled part of tours. So I'm a bit fuzzy as to what they should have done so that Tarja's needs were met. Just curious.

1) Keep the toilet seat down
1A) Don't piss all over said toilet seat

 

[C.]

^Something like that.

 

[Bianca74]

1) Keep the toilet seat down
1A) Don't piss all over said toilet seat

Lmao

 

[Stingray11214]

Enigma is right on the fact that a lot of maneuverings set the relationship back to a point of no return. Not only is Tarja not going back to Nightwish in her lifetime, but she probably will not be spending much time in Finland anymore, either. Even if Marcelo dropped dead tomorrow, I doubt that Tarja will ever go back to Finland, never mind Nightwish.

 

[Bianca74]

I agree I don't see Tarja ever going back to NW and I'm pretty sure that the guys would never even consider taking her back. Too much hurt on both sides to ever get to the point of a reunion. It's like Pantera getting back together, sans Dimebag, and we know that won't ever happen either.

 

[pere]

I know I'm veering a bit off-topic, but couldn't keep my curiosity in check, so if you can bear with and elaborate a bit, Enigma - I fail to see the exact connection between these, I'm sure very real and crucial, legal issues and the need to make the sacking in public. How come they couldn't simply sort out the legalities in private (which they had to anyway, the open letter is hardly a legal document), offer a socially potty-trained explanation to the public and no more ado about it?

Mind you though, I'm not saying they should have - after all, what else could we endlessly speculate about if the boys hadn't spilled the beans?

Yes, that is mentioned in The Book also, I think. At least it was mentioned many times in the several interviews with Tuomas and the guys back in 2006. It was one (but not the only) of the important reasons they had to make the sacking in public, immediately after the last concert of the Once tour. It wasn't just the guys being mean, the whole act was planned carefully with lawyers who negotiated and cleared the band's contracts with Nuclear Blast, Spinefarm and maybe Roadrunner (I'm not sure if they only informed RR just before) so they were assured that there wasn't going to be any conflict with the labels when Tarja was ousted.
.

 

[C.]

I'm not sure if the book says this too, but I read an interview where Tuomas said that the only way he could do it was publicly, because he didn't want to take the chance of so many rumors flying that it would have been impossible for people to sort out what was true and what wasn't, and the only way fans could get the whole story from them was just to be public about it straight off. Of course, rumors still flew, but imagine if the band had kept the firing private and let "legal matters take its course". People would be speculating to this day as to how Tarja was really fired, whether she was actually fired or quit, etc. At least this way, people know for sure that she *was* fired; whatever reasons that we think are behind it, we all know at least that she was kicked out of the band because they had problems that could not be worked out.

 

[Mooki]

This is off-topic, but what exactly do people (and Tarja) mean when they say that the guys should have been more aware of her needs? The others had to re-adjust a lot of things that they wanted to have done because Tarja was studying and because she didn't want to play small venues and thus cancelled part of tours. So I'm a bit fuzzy as to what they should have done so that Tarja's needs were met. Just curious.

What I meant by that was that it seems that the boys often acted in that whole "boys will be boys" manner, almost forgetting that Tarja was also on tour with them and that she was female. I don't think she was against all their antics (I mean come on, surely she too had a bit of fun now and then, right?), but she is a singer and as a singer, pretty much your whole body is your instrument. You need to at your best, you need to keep healthy and stress free in order to keep performing your best, day after day.

In that sense, Tarja was more "delicate" than the guys; more prone to feeling the effects of stress, partying, lack of rest, second-hand smoke, etc. If she needed time out to be on her own, to go to a hotel and rest or whatever, the NW guys (and anyone for that matter) must have realised that it wasn't always out of diva-like antics, but for her own well being.

However, I think that really failed in Tarja's relationship with NW was that they ALL failed to communicate their individual needs and their needs as a group, in a clear manner. On top of that, I do think that Tarja perhaps made some questionable choices on the advice of…*ahem*, a certain someone, but what I'm saying is that surely not every request she made was done out of her overinflated diva ego. Even Anette has different needs to the guys, but it seems Anette succeeds more in communicating this to them and kicking (metaphorically of course ) their asses back into line when necessary.

 

[Bianca74]

Thanks Mooki. I really was wondering what specifically it was since I've read that it was something that she was very unsatisfied with. But tourning with a bunch of guys; what did she think was going to happen? I don't think that Anette has (metaphorically) kicked their asses back into line, but I think the guys are older now, and that Anette sort of deals with it better.

 

[Mooki]

Of course Tarja should have expected that a lot of crazy shit would happen when you tour with guys in a heavy metal band and it is impossible to cater to one's every need and whim, but some basic considerations should not be ignored. I mean, as a singer if your health and state of mind is fucked up, you will deliver a bad show. In the end, it's not a good thing for anyone. I'm not placing all the blame on the guys though, I think both sides screwed up when it came to communicating and dealing with important business matters and maybe their relationships changed throughout the years too and that causes a huge impact on their working relationship. Perhaps in the end, even communication would not have helped due to the change in the dynamics of their realtionship - they wanted to move in different directions and it simply was not working anymore. It's sad how it all had to end, but at least they're all doing well now.

The guys have most likely, matured at least a little, but I feel that Anette also deals with communication better. Maybe I read too much into it, but with the life experiences that she has had, she's most likely dealt with all sorts of different people and thus does not say no for an answer when the guys shut down and refuse to talk or whatever. It has been mentioned in interviews that they all had a very bad time during one stage of the DPP tour, yet with "rules" Anette set into place they survived through it, so I think it comes down to a combination of Anette dealing with these things better and knowing how to get the people around her to communicate effectively.

That's just the idea that I get based on what we know, I may be completely off the mark though. XD

 

[C.]

I really think in a lot of respects the band nor Tarja knew what they were getting into until they actually started hitting the road. I mean, from how the book makes it seem; AFF was just supposed to be a demo, and they didn't really expect much from it. Then within a year, they are signed, playing gigs, making a follow-up album...I imagine it was a whirlwind for all of them, and I don't blame any of them for not really knowing how to handle each other. The fact that Tarja claims that Tuomas was very harsh with her during the Oceanborn recordings (the infamous "sing, b*tch, sing!" line), I think this proves as well that they didn't have this instant camaraderie, and it never really had a chance to form, because during those first few years of "finding their feet", Marcelo came along and I think at that point it was easier for Tarja to just sort of hide under his wing and let him do all the talking for her.

As far as things are now, I think it's a little of both: the guys have seemed to learn well from the whole Tarja debacle, and seem a lot more open to dealing with things. And likewise, Anette is older than Tarja and also a mother, so I think she has more of a "no-nonsense" stance because of that; so when she's firm about something, she probably just goes into "mom mode", so to speak, "and that's that". I think the guys have matured a lot more (I hope they have!), and Anette seems to be more open about communicating as well, so this probably goes a long way.

 

[Mooki]

Yes, that's a good point too, C.

Though I'll just point out that while Tuomas' methods of making Tarja sing might not have been very conventional, her time in NW has surely given her a lot of experience. It goes both ways, but I think being in NW has opened a lot of doors for Tarja that she may not have been there in the first place, had she not been the singer of NW first. It's given her opportunities to develop her singing in ways she may not have thought to do in the first place.