Tarja performing nightwish songs: "thoughts?"

[Bianca74]

Maybe it's true what Tarja said at the time of the firing, that they weren't really that good friends to begin with. I mean Tuomas and Emppu definitely were good friends, but it doesn't seem like they were friends with Tarja prior to asking her to sing on a demo. So when in walks Marcelo, the stuff that weren't working that well to begin with, became even worse, and it all got too hard to deal with. But of course I don't know what really went down. I guess that's why we're still speculating, 7 years after the fact.

 

[Mooki]

To be honest I think there would've had to be some form of friendship born if they were able to tolerate each other for all those years, even with the troubles that came. Otherwise why put themselves through the suffering of having to be around each other? Why not move on from Nightwish earlier? Keep in mind that Tarja also supposedly said she'd make one more album after Once, but if things were so bad, why put herself through the suffering of having to deal with Tuomas any longer?
I think her words were said at a time when she was deeply hurt by what happened, thus she probably didn't even think of any good experiences that were had with Nightwish, all she could really see and feel was the bad, if you get what I mean.

It's a shame Tarja chose to hide under Marcelo's wing, as C said (I am speculating here of course) and give him such predominance in making decisions in her career. Perhaps if she had been wise enough to keep personal relationships and business away from each other, things with Nightwish might have gone at bit smoother. I don't want to judge her relationship with Marcelo too harshly; she seems happy and yes, he's probably helped her when she needed him, that's great, good luck to them, but I believe working with your partner is just a no-go zone. Very few people can make it work really, really well. Personal feelings simply become too mixed up in it all and then people don't think clearly and logically and people make stupid decisions and accusations against each other and things turn sour. I mean, if her personal manager was not her husband, at least she couldn't get as personally involved/invested if the NW guys did not see eye-to-eye with him/her. Marcelo might help her in personal matters, but that does not necessarily make him the best person to turn to for business matters.

 

[C.]

^Exactly, I think that his attempt to do what he thought was best for her oftentimes clouded his judgment, and it became harder to discern whether what he was doing was good for business, or out of his need to protect her because he loved her.

 

[St Enigma]

I know I'm veering a bit off-topic, but couldn't keep my curiosity in check, so if you can bear with and elaborate a bit, Enigma - I fail to see the exact connection between these, I'm sure very real and crucial, legal issues and the need to make the sacking in public. How come they couldn't simply sort out the legalities in private (which they had to anyway, the open letter is hardly a legal document), offer a socially potty-trained explanation to the public and no more ado about it?

Mind you though, I'm not saying they should have - after all, what else could we endlessly speculate about if the boys hadn't spilled the beans?

Remember that Tarja was a member of the band, but legally she was a "hired hand" after fall 2002 when she denied to join in the founded company Scenen Nation ltd with the guys. They made a contract with her to sing as the band's frontwoman, and according to Tuomas calling that contract legally off had to be made right after the last concert.
How necessary it was to make it public - I honestly do not know - but looks like it was aimed to Marcelo. Everybody involved with Nightwish were thoroughly pissed off with him by that time and they (not only the band guys) wanted to give him a punch. Jukka still said this year that he can't forgive him waht he did like calling off the sold out North American and Japan-Australia tours scheduled for spring 2005. They somehow were able to force Tarja to tour Japan and Australia, but missing North America was too much.
It was only two weeks after Tarja's refusla when the guys and Kin foo made the decision to get rid of marcelo and Tarja as soon it was legally possible. After that they hardly spoke with the couple at all for the rest of the tour.


In the early days the band cherished their public image as one happy family, all born in the small town, but it wasn't exactly the full truth. When they started to record the songs which became known as AFF in late Dec 1996, Tarja had just finished her first fall season in the Sibelius Academy in Kuopio. Before that she had been living in Savonlinna for 3 years attending to the art-oriented highschool.

When the success hit, Tarja continued her studies and the band was able to tour only during her vacations. She never came to rehearsals but a couple of days before the tours, did not contribute to the songs and basically had a life of her own, takng part with other projects like the 1999 Evangelicum metal opera project with Waltari and the Finnish National Opera.
In summer 2000 she met Marcelo and an year later she moved to Germany for further singing studies. Not really close encounters with the band outside the tour legs.



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[Bianca74]

Oh it was "Scenen Nation ltd" that the company is called. When I translated the interview with Jukka, I wrote Live Nation. My bad. You've a wealth of NW knowledge St Enigma!

 

[Mooki]

Well…that puts a different spin on things, in terms of the relationships within the band. But then doesn't that beg the question why the working relationship with Tarja was so strained, why it had to end the way it did, when even now, they don't spend all their time with Anette as best buddies forever?

 

[St Enigma]

Oh it was "Scenen Nation ltd" that the company is called. When I translated the interview with Jukka, I wrote Live Nation. My bad. You've a wealth of NW knowledge St Enigma!

Obviously I made a typo. Actually the name is Scene Nation ltd

My bad

Well…that puts a different spin on things, in terms of the relationships within the band. But then doesn't that beg the question why the working relationship with Tarja was so strained, why it had to end the way it did, when even now, they don't spend all their time with Anette as best buddies forever?

It wasn't strained until things started to go sour during the Once tour in summer 2004 when Marcelo showed his real face and began his campaign to take over and run the band over King Foo mangement by using Tarja as a lever. Poor Tarja had no clue about all the email debates about gig contracts and monetary issues between King Foo and her husband/personal manager who continuously rejected the already signed gig contracts and asked King Foo guys to raise prices. Ewo and Toni weren't happy about the twist of things at all... neither were the guys in the band. Then finally turning down the whole North American tour did show everybody that Nightwish wasn't Tarja's #1 interest any more.

.

 

[Mooki]

Yeah, but weren't there issues in the band around the Wishmaster era? What was the cause of those problems, what made Tuomas want to disband NW in the first place? (I've probably read this somewhere, but I am forgetting).

 

[crimrose]

^Yes, but Marcelo was still in the picture by that time. He married Tarja in 2001, but she knew him and was dating him long before that. Marcelo credits himself (most undeservingly, I think) with "saving" the band because supposedly he was able to get them to reconcile. This I doubt, because Tarja said that Tuomas just decided he wanted to keep going and not throw away his success, not throw away all his hard work - which makes more sense, really.

We don't know the exact circumstances or what all the issues were - all we know is that they were, obviously, resolved. Marcelo also claims they were happy while touring for CC and things seemed well. This I also doubt, partly because it's Marcelo talking and we all know he isn't exactly the Prince of Honesty and Forthrightness, and partly because from everything I've heard and read, the guys and Tarja were never really friends in the true sense of the word.

So, you asked, why did it end the way it did with Tarja, when they don't spend all their time with Anette either? I think it's because they chose Anette when they didn't have to. Nobody was making them, nobody was advising them. They chose her because of her voice, of course, but also because they really liked her as a person. There's a key difference. You can say they 'chose' Tarja, but in my view, not really...they chose her because she was there. More of a matter of convenience, and being young, inexperienced, and nobodies in the music industry at that time. She was someone they knew, but they weren't friends. They didn't know any singers very well, and Tarja had a family connection to Tuomas - I believe Tuomas' mother cared for Tarja's little brother or something. So they had a connection, but it wasn't a very personal one. They needed a singer, she was there and she agreed to do it.

Of course, it goes without saying they liked her voice or they wouldn't have kept her. But they didn't realize their project would become so big. If they had, perhaps they would have chosen someone they were more compatible with, someone they really knew. But they didn't. They never thought they'd be stuck on a tour bus with this girl for months at a time. Tarja didn't like them very much either in the beginning, from the sounds of it. They had to learn to like each other, because they had unwittingly become the most famous band in Finland without even trying, and all of them wanted to continue...but the difference is that the guys were already friends. Tuomas and Emppu were childhood friends. Jukka was a childhood friend of Emppu's. And, fast forward ahead a bit, Marco was already in so many metal projects, he knew what to expect from a tour, and he had already toured and been around a bunch of drunk guys. Tarja had none of these bonds, and none of these experiences. So of course it was harder for her.

Back to Anette - Anette had a good idea of what she was getting into. She knew the band was famous, she knew there were huge expectations, and she knew she'd be spending months at a time on a tour bus with four guys. Tarja knew none of this at the beginning, she simply couldn't have. And the guys CHOSE Anette, out of a virtually endless list of other options. The fact that they chose her counts for a lot. And Anette keeps in touch with them when she is in Sweden, she would talk about texting Tuomas or Marco or Emppu all the time in between DPP and iRum. It seems like they genuinely like each other and want to get along. And, everybody in NW is an adult now. The guys are all over 30, Anette's 40, Marco's 45. They're all getting a little too old for the same antics they had back then, and they all know it. Older and wiser, as they say.

 

[St Enigma]

The first crisis back in 2001 wasn't about Tarja. What I've learned from End of Innocence-DVD, the book and several interviews with Tuomas, he had grown tired of handling the band's finances and most every little details by himself. They were siply growing too fast at the time and while he is a perfectionist, he wasn't able to accept that he needed help.
They had a Finnish agency who sold their gigs, and someone in Germany, but not any actual manager taking care of the numerous tasks of a professional band. Then there were some issues with Sami, the bassist who had challenged Tuomas' visions of how the band should proceed musicwise. He is a bluesman, after all. Also, he tended to be quite indifferent about dicpline and timetables - like not always showing up at rehearsals and so on.

All that took its toll and made Tuomas quit the band after the last gig of Wishmaster tour. And he did. Came Ewo who sorted things out: he proposed that he'd put up a management company and would start taking care of managing Nightwish. Tuomas wanted Sami out, but couldn't tell his friend face to face to go, so Ewo had to handle it. Also finances were moved into the briefly founded companies Scene Nation ltd for the band's businesses and Tuomas's personal company Potoska Publishing for his gain for the copyrights of his songs. At this point Tarja refused to buy her share of the company and became a "hired hand" who had a work contract with Scene Nation ltd. On top of that Tuomas asked Marco, one of the most appreciated singing bassist in the country to join in. Now that move became a chapter of history and turned Nightwish's musical course quite radically as they now had two capable and matching vocalists.

Those actions made the band's work on professional basis and Tuomas was free from business tasks to concentrate on his art and leading the band.

.

 

[C.]

Tarja and Marcelo married in '03, I believe. I remember the 20+-page thread about her wedding on the (very) old forum.

Enigma's right; I think handling the financial matters alone got too much for Tuomas to handle, and he has said numerous times in interviews how he hates handling the business aspect of things.

Crimrose brings up a good point too; the band took the time to get to know Anette once they chose her. If I remember correctly, they all spent a weekend together camping; hanging out and getting acquainted. So this probably helped a lot as well. I don't think they ever had the opportunity to bond with Tarja the same way, or maybe things might have turned out different and it wouldn't have mattered so much that they had little interaction. People who get along don't necessarily always need to be around each other. And if you think about it, just because they don't hang out together during their off-time, you can't exactly say that living in such close quarters together for months at a time during a tour is "having little interaction" either.

 

[Mooki]

Wow, Tuomas really hates business matters, doesn't he? lol

Thanks for clearing things up, crimrose and St. Enigma. Though I still cannot help but think, in all the years they were with Tarja, that they never had a chance to bond a bit further? I mean, I do find that slightly hard to believe. Sure, the perfect opportunities don't always present themselves to us, but that's why sometimes one just has to try and create opportunities. Obviously the guys were already friends, so I wonder, would it have been too difficult for Tarja to try and open up and bond with them, rather than say, hiding herself behind Marcelo? The guys could have tried harder too, perhaps (I guess we'll never know to what extent they tried to make things work), but I guess what I am saying is, if Tarja was the odd one out she could have, oh I don't know, tried to do something to be better friends with the others? I'm not saying the touring lifestyle was easy for her, but you make do with what you have, you talk to people, get to know them in a personal and in a business sense, don't leave others to do the work for you. For example, they weren't always friends with Marco either (I'll leave Anette out of the comparison for now) and while he was suitable for the recording/touring artist lifestyle, they could have had a strictly business relationship with him too, but look at them now, they're all bros. That sort of thing doesn't always "just happen", someone has to take initiative and make things happen and I'm pretty sure Marco himself had a hand in that too.

Her years in Nightwish may not have been perfect, but I don't think one can deny they've helped her gain a lot now.

 

[Bianca74]

Yeah, thanks everyone for your input. I read today on a local news web site, that Tarja's given some interview to a Brasilian rock show, that she felt so bad many years after the split from NW that she wouldn't wish the same shit she had to go through on her worst enemy.
I don't doubt that it was hard for her, I totally get that. But does anyone know if Tarja ever has admitted in so many words, that she might have done something wrong in order for things to get so bad that she got fired?

 

[Mooki]

Um, I think Tarja's said that she cannot recognise herself in the words from the open letter, in her open letter. That's all I remember. Of course, if "Enough" if her "bye bye Nightwish" song, as people have speculated then the case is probably that she still sees the guilt in the others and not herself or Marcelo. I think she has mentioned that the song is about things that make her angry/sad and one of those things she mentioned specifically was "racism", so then people speculated that she was referring to Tuomas and co's mention of "cultural differences" being one of the reasons that they could no longer work with team Tarja/Marcelo.

 

[C.]

^See, I never saw that statement as being racist (but as some folks here can tell you, some things that are sometimes blatantly racist go right over my head because I just don't think in those terms); I always considered it more at face value, and maybe Tuomas was referring to his own cultural difference from Marcelo, not necessarily Marcelo's from his. But I guess folks will read into it what they want. I saw it more in that maybe there was a "cultural gap" between them, and certain things that might have been acceptable or the norm for one person would be considered strange or off-the-cuff for another, and that might have been another factor that made communication or understanding tough between them. Like I don't expect to go to other countries and expect people to understand certain mannerisms or characteristics that are normal for me, as an American (or vice-versa). I don't think it's racist if someone says there are "cultural differences" between me and someone who is not American.

Though I still cannot help but think, in all the years they were with Tarja, that they never had a chance to bond a bit further? I mean, I do find that slightly hard to believe.

I don't, just because it seems that Tarja already was a sort of reserved personality, and I could easily see her backing away from personal invitations to spend time with them, etc. Like in the End of an Era DVD, where everyone mentions their favorite times together being their off-days in Italy and Australia, except for Tarja. Like I could see incidents like that happening, where she might have been invited to join them (even before Marcelo came along, let's say), and her refusing because she might have been uncomfortable hanging out with a bunch of guys, etc. Likewise, I could also see the same scenario on the other end; Tarja inviting the guys to spend time with she and Marcelo so they could get to know him better as a person and maybe to know her a little better too. Ultimately, I think maybe there might have been times when each party could have wanted a better relationship, but weren't sure how to pursue it.

People seem to forget that for the majority of their time together, they were all young adults in their early to mid-'20s, and just speaking as an old hag who is over the hill, I know those are not always the easiest times. You're still finding your own feet and learning how to outgrow old childish habits, so I could definitely see how communication could have been a problem because in many ways both parties might have been too immature (for lack of a better word) or not fully comfortable with themselves enough to know how to be open (or in the case of the guys, maybe the only way they knew how to "let loose" was when they were drunk and partying, which turned off Tarja and in turn, made her not want to be around them, which made *them* see her as snobby and unapproachable; see the pattern here? ). I am not putting all the "blame" on their youth, per se, but I certainly think it was among one of the many factors that eventually caused things to go south. And yes, Marco was older than the rest of them, but he also came in "late in the game"; he was only in the band for the last 3 years of their career with Tarja, so a lot of those factors had probably been firmly established by that point.

This is why I think the split eventually did them both good, because it was something that they both learned from and hopefully they have walked away from it as better people and wiser too.

LOL, as far as Tarja's "bye-bye Nightwish" song, I tend to think a majority of her solo career songs could be interpreted to focus too much on "the split". I don't know who writes her lyrics, but there are quite a few songs where I am hearing the words and thinking to myself, "how is Tarja ever gonna break free of the 'ex-Nightwish singer' stigma when these lyrics appear to make reference to the incident that made her 'ex-Nightwish singer'?"

 

[Mooki]

@C: I forgot to mention this earlier, but I should point out: while "Enough" might be her revenge song and while the point of view might show her as the victim of the negative behaviour of others, it does not necessarily mean Tarja has not recognised the flaws in herself and in how she deals with others. A song is about feelings at a particular point in time, about a particular event and so on, so it shows one side of the story, but of course it cannot be used as very strong evidence to suggest Tarja is unable to move on or to see her own flaws, to fix them and so on. Of course, this is just an interpretation of "Enough" so there's no solid proof one way or the other. (To be honest Tarja seems a lot more outgoing, open and obviously happy these days so I do think that she too, has changed).

I didn't pick up racism from the letter either, but some people always jump to the worst possible conclusions. Call me crazy, but I always thought cultural differences did exist, even if they are minimal. Yes, this CAN affect how we interact and communicate with others, even the values we have, though that also comes down greatly to how we are raised and our individual life experiences.

For example, Finns are apparently more shy, reserved, which is probably why I have a hard time understanding why the fuck it was so difficult to Tarja and the boys to TALK and get to know each other. I have grown up in, in my opinion, quite open, outgoing cultures where it's normal to become friendly/close quite quickly so to me it's just natural to try and get to know people, to pluck up the courage and just communicate.

I see what you mean about the communication/"immaturity" thing. Still, I think it's stupid. I mean, for fuck's sake, why hold yourself back so much? It's not like any of them were carrying the bubonic plague. :/ Again, maybe it's the more reserved nature of the Finns or something, but idk…if I had to spend so much of my time with people I'd take up socalising with them as a part-time job, at least until I needed some peace and quiet. Maybe I am too open and trusting.

LOL, I think Tarja's lyrics are the least of her worries…actually no, some of them could use some improvement, but if the marketing of her solo career still sells her as the ex-NW singer even after WLB then she will always be "that ex-NW singer who got fired".

LOL, I just realised this topic has veered off into a very general Tarja discussion rather than just being about her covering NW songs. XDDD

 

[C.]

^LOL, that's OK, we can be more off-topic around here.

I'm with you; I'm obviously not from a more reserved culture either so it's hard for me to understand reluctance or being unable to communicate openly, so yeah, this is an example of "cultural differences". It doesn't mean that either is wrong, just that we approach things differently and this can make for misunderstandings sometimes.

 

[Hyperspace]

I very much agree with this. I think it's fine just the way it is, I do feel sad that I was not apart of the "Tarja Era".. but I'm glad I found NW. And as much as I love the Tarja Era, I'm not sure that I would've become AS big of a fan based on her era alone. Coming into the NW fandom - I was not a metal listener (maybe casually), and I'd never even HEARD of symphonic metal. So to hear Tarja on top of the symphonic/metal aspects was almost TOO foreign right off the bat. I don't know if anyone else around here discovered NW during the DPP era, but I didn't delve into Tarja songs until I started really getting into it on youtube and such. I must say though, the End of an Era DVD (I had found it on youtube) is what really cemented the deal for me as a fan. There was no turning back at that point.

I discovered Nightwish during the DPP era.

 

[Inanna/Ishtar]

What an amazing thread; I am truly impressed.
New to metal, several months ago I was scrolling a Fantasy Art website when I was caught up by “Walking In the Air,” though I had no knowledge of the NW band at the time. My ear was responding, not my memory.
A month ago I stumbled over “Sleeping Sun” and when Tarja nailed that high F in the last chorus, clear as a bell, I became a lifelong fan, reading and listening to a lot from the beginning of NW. The girl has an impressive range.
When I learned of the parting, I read Tuomas’ original letter and Tarja’s reply. By that time I believed I knew enough to post an opinion note that said: “Tarja did not seem greedy in the beginning; it was not until after her wedding that she began reaching for more.” Guess who I blame for that with Bobby Brown’s influence on Whitney Houston in mind. Tarja’s claims to loving the (expletive) have a defensive ring to them, but what can we do. The parting of Tarja and Nightwish is a tragedy that may one day be resolved when Tarja realizes she’s given the wrong man ten of her best years and is suffering for it.
I imagine there are new heights open to a reunion with NW and sooner or later Tarja has to know this and get rid of her baggage. The 10-year contract can be scuttled. I attempted to advise her but every avenue to Tarja is blocked (censored) by Marcelo.
So, until the wakeup happens, the old songs Tarja performed with NW belong as much to her as Tuomas (who continues to get the royalties). Fans love her voice and want to hear them, as do I. Tarja and Nightwish are a phenomenal match, the like of which I have not heard since Celine Dion sang “The Power of Love.” God, please wake up that beautiful woman.
Inanna/Ishtar

 

[C.]

Welcome to the board!