The Abortion Thread

I think your distaste for both my argument (which tbh was mainly for laughs though it is my viewpoint) and others is perfectly demonstrated in your statements above. People generally don't specify trimesters or how far along their beliefs travel when they're on the subject, I think because it goes without saying that most people are indeed against abortion in later stages. Pretty sure it can't even be done that late in the game.
 
As scientific research on the development of the fetus progresses, we're learning more and more that viability outside of the womb is earlier and earlier. This is why people have had to constantly change their position on the subject, especially if they're not religious and base their position on the science. Your argument has an underlying position that seems to pretend as if a fetus is a fixed state, rather than a transitional state.

Essentially the core logic of your argument is that John Smith doesn't deserve to ever vote because he's not 18 yet, though he will be eventually.
 
To me this is among the most pointless of all political debates. People who believe fetuses are people are usually religious, and put about as much reason into their beliefs as they do in things like young earth creationism. You can't reason with religion.
 
It's a generic debate.

Not really. You just have a generic position on the subject, one that ignores all of the philosophical, moral, ethical and scientific material in favour of some kind of lazy cede to the women position. That's not a fault of the subject.

To me this is among the most pointless of all political debates. People who believe fetuses are people put about as much reason into their beliefs as young earth creationists do. You can't reason with religion.

Very idiotic comment. What are fetuses, giraffes? I myself was convinced to have my abortion position by Christopher Hitchens, your comment is a terrible strawman.

I think I would put my position at 23 weeks, abortion before 23 weeks should be available, after 23 weeks the fetus has a reasonable shot at survival outside of the womb. That's not third trimester ("late term") by the way, that's second trimester. Late term is kind of a meme for centrists to cite at each other to find common ground on a topic. Only maniacs would support aborting a literal fully developed baby and they're not worth debating.

I have zero sympathy for people who engage in actions that fundamentally come with a KNOWN risk of pregnancy. If a woman is raped then she obviously hasn't consented to risk procreation, and a certain ignorance to the risks increases as the age of the people having sex lowers of course. But people who moan about their right to evacuate an intruder inside their body are pretending as if they didn't know what they were risking.

People are irresponsible as shit these days so I shouldn't be surprised that they can't even on a basic level admit they put that fetus there, it didn't put itself there. Choosing pleasure over responsibility is the sign that someone shouldn't be a parent, but unlike others who use that as a justification for abortion I would just say give the baby up for adoption so you can go back to having fun or whatever the fuck you prioritize. I'm not convinced by muh wamenz rights when it comes to this subject, women aren't special - they don't have a magical right to kill a fetus because it's inside of them. That's just retarded, frankly.

And as the science on the subject continues to develop, supporting abortion will more and more become an anti-science position, much like climate science where people more and more have to oppose the research ideologically because the science is getting better and better. Feminists actively shun scientific arguments against abortion already, it'll only get more faith-based, ironically.
 
Very idiotic comment. What are fetuses, giraffes? I myself was convinced to have my abortion position by Christopher Hitchens, your comment is a terrible strawman.

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Nitpicky weirdos like you are an outlier. It's fundamentally a function of religious beliefs for most people.
 
Not an argument.

You're doing a lot of editing that changes the context of your response. Of course most people who oppose abortion are going to be religious, they believe in souls etc. That doesn't rebut anything I've said because nothing I've said is based on a religious belief.
 
I think it does. The fetus falls squarely in the category of innocent and unable to defend itself and the rights of things that fall into such categories are always an important subject to me, whether it be animals, the fetus, people with diminished mental capacities and so on.

Not sure how killing an unborn child (as in, viable if removed from the womb) could ever be a matter of preference.
 
People are irresponsible as shit these days so I shouldn't be surprised that they can't even on a basic level admit they put that fetus there, it didn't put itself there. Choosing pleasure over responsibility is the sign that someone shouldn't be a parent
You assume a responsibility exists in the first place. There are Jainists who think we all have a responsibility to sweep insects out of the way while we walk so we don't crush them. Are you "responsible" by their standards?
 
You assume a responsibility exists in the first place. There are Jainists who think we all have a responsibility to sweep insects out of the way while we walk so we don't crush them. Are you "responsible" by their standards?

Your rebuttals are so weird, you're completely hung up on religion and I can only assume you have less of a position on abortion and more of a bias against religion which results in your current position. I'm not religious, I'm an atheist. I don't give a shit about religious concepts like the soul entering the zygote upon conception or Jainism.
 
Your rebuttals are so weird, you're completely hung up on religion and I can only assume you have less of a position on abortion and more of a bias against religion which results in your current position. I'm not religious, I'm an atheist. I don't give a shit about religious concepts like the soul entering the zygote upon conception or Jainism.
Who's making strawmen now? Care to just answer the question?
 
Who's making strawmen now? Care to just answer the question?

Still you. You're using religious examples to rebut me when I'm not religious, never have been and haven't made a single religious argument thus far for my views on second and third trimester abortion.

What in your question is there to even answer? No I'm not responsible for violating some obscure religious standard of not crushing insects. It's such an irrelevant thing to bring up. It's relativism, by stopping a criminal act I am violating the criminal's standards, this assumes that these responsibilities are equal and comparable.
 
What in your question is there to even answer? No I'm not responsible for violating some obscure religious standard of not crushing insects. It's such an irrelevant thing to bring up.
What makes Jainist beliefs about insects less relevant (or important) than your beliefs about fetuses? A life is a life.
 
More relativism. Should I be allowed to kill you?
Like I said, maybe it's just a matter of preference. I think the relativist argument illustrates that well.

Sure, there isn't necessarily an objective right or wrong about you killing me, but as a matter of preference, I assume we both prefer to live in a society where people aren't allowed to kill each other willy-nilly.
 
Like I said, maybe it's just a matter of preference. I think the relativist argument illustrates that well.

Sure, there isn't necessarily an objective right or wrong about you killing me, but as a matter of preference, I assume we both prefer to live in a society where people aren't allowed to kill each other willy-nilly.

I believe it's objectively wrong to steal or destroy another's property and the body is fundamentally the first and most important property you will ever own. This is why rape is a violation deserving of harsh punishment, why circumcision of infants is a human rights violation and why slavery is absolutely monstrous. This is also why the fetus shouldn't be conflated with the pregnant woman's rights to her own body because the fetus is a separate body that was put there by the mother via her own actions, unless it was rape.

I'm not a relativist on pretty much any issue. Yes I'd prefer to live in such a society, but thankfully such a society's existence doesn't rely on my personal preferences, there are legal concepts and philosophical concepts buttressing such a society and anybody with a preference that runs counter to that will be dealt with accordingly.
 
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What makes Jainist beliefs about insects less relevant (or important) than your beliefs about fetuses? A life is a life.

More relativism. Should I be allowed to kill you?

If I may, I think Grant is pointing out that you don't feel guilt or shame for killing insects despite some belief systems in which doing so is cruel. You do (or would) feel guilt/shame for aborting a fetus. It may be the case that you value "property"--i.e. you don't think another's property should be infringed upon. But you're choosing how to deploy this value system. Presumably you feel that an unborn child's body is its property (although this is debatable), but don't feel that an insect's body is its property. Or maybe you do, but don't think this is an important analogy.

Either way, I believe he's just pointing out the arbitrariness with which you apply your beliefs about abortion.
 
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