The Appeal of Darkness

It seems to me that one would even have trouble proving one's own existence by a purely empirical basis. Let me try it this way: suppose the criterion to determine your own existence is if other people say you exist. This is all fine and good in the everyday world where you're constantly interacting with other people, but what would happen if you were entirely alone in the world? Would you, because no one else could confirm it for you, cease to exist? Yet if you remain self-aware, how can this be? You cannot simultaneously exist and not exist--hence, you ultimately have to resort to René Déscartes' very subjective "proof" of existence: "I think, therefore I am."

Furthermore, it's important to remember that science is neither omnipotent nor omniscient...and it can't ever be; after all, we're flawed creatures, and those flaws will work their way into anything we do.
 
Rose Immortal said:
It seems to me that one would even have trouble proving one's own existence by a purely empirical basis. Let me try it this way: suppose the criterion to determine your own existence is if other people say you exist. This is all fine and good in the everyday world where you're constantly interacting with other people, but what would happen if you were entirely alone in the world? Would you, because no one else could confirm it for you, cease to exist? Yet if you remain self-aware, how can this be? You cannot simultaneously exist and not exist--hence, you ultimately have to resort to René Déscartes' very subjective "proof" of existence: "I think, therefore I am."

Furthermore, it's important to remember that science is neither omnipotent nor omniscient...and it can't ever be; after all, we're flawed creatures, and those flaws will work their way into anything we do.

Well said. Your "proof of existence" query is a classic one in philosophy--it is remniscent to me of attempts made to prove that anyone BUT the observer exists, at least in the sense that they are conscious in the same way as the observer. Ultimately our trust in this fact resides on a feeling.

I also full-heartedly agree with your word on science; too many these days seem to have this infallible trust in science to the point of dogma ("scientism").
 
hehehe, I agree with all the points made above by marfrozzi and rose immortal. Well put on your scepticism of the infallibility of science.

Just one thing Dorian Gray (not that I want to turn this into a debate on occultism); but you said in your most recent post

"i also didnt mean to tie it in with satan. actually the two are opposites (satan is from the judeo-christian tradition while occultism is not)."

Judeo-christianity can, and quite frequently DOES, liberally cross over with occultism. My earlier example of the Kabbalah - for example - is quite apt; it is the esoteric teachings of Judaism, and is one of the fundamental pillars of the Western magical tradition.
Quite fair of you, though, to discount occult beliefs: it is up to you after all. However I do not think that occultism is any more a psuedo-science than science is a form of pseudo-occultism.
:)

And - yes - most of my points I was about to make have just been made by Marfrozzi et al. Thank you for throwing a spanner in the proverbial works of 'omniscient' science.
 
Occultism is a belief in the supernatural, mysticism or magic, the esoteric. I dunno how I could define it... the hidden and the supernatural...
 
I live a very happy life, everything's going well, no problems at all.

People think that youngsters listening to metal music are often depressed. I can't see that. I just like the sad and dark melodies, I think they're much more emotional than standard happy melodies.

Most mainstream people want happy songs, to get a happy feeling. I'm happy enough myself, so I'll just listen to dark or sad music.
 
marfrozzi said:
Religion may not be a legitimate SCIENTIFIC study, that doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate STUDY. Not surprisingly, many people choose to believe that science doesn't fully explain the totality of reality. You said that there's nothing to "prove or disprove" about religion, however religion is not science and thus does not place emphasis on proofs--discussing religion is not usually about trying to prove its scientific legitmacy, it is usually about discussing faith. At most, people try to formulate opinions rather than facts in such matters--consider that things like questions of morality are not discussed on a "scientific" level, because empirical facts are of little value in such enivironments; just as they are in religious matters. People that discuss religion do not merely have faith in their deity, they have faith in their capacity to understand truth through their subjective capacities alone--saying that intuition into spiritual matters is irrelevant because it is not empirically-based is like denouncing (and thus disregarding) a person's wants or needs as invalid in ANY discussion because they aren't scientifically "testable".
good stuff here. i agree. however, i wanted to make it clear in my statement that its a personal choice. ive always been somewhat of a rational person but i also believed in christ and other tenants of a faith-based life. only recently did my need for rationalism overtake my desire to have faith. ive since given up on something that i dont think does, or can, exist. that goes for ALL such faith-based subjects for me.
so, i mean to say that it's personal. if one chooses to accept theology, occultism, pseudo-science, whatever, that's cool. all im saying is that there is no accountability. you can say whatever you want and back it up with whatever you want. that may work for you but not for me. and thats cool.

i disagree with your last thought. i think that is an illogical argument. a persons needs are mainly objective (no food or water = certain death) but the subjective is no less important. if i want a new opeth cd, i want it becuase i want it. im the final judge in that regard, so it IS valid. its not the same as saying i want it because god wants me to.

im enjoying your thoughts. feel free to share if you got more of em.
 
Rose Immortal said:
Furthermore, it's important to remember that science is neither omnipotent nor omniscient...and it can't ever be; after all, we're flawed creatures, and those flaws will work their way into anything we do.

please note that i did not say i think science is omniscient....nor omnipotent.
the scientific method is the best system we have as subjective beings to objectively describe our environment. remember that it was non-science (theology) that denied that the earth orbits the sun and it was science that said it does. without scientific enlightentment, we would still believe god created people out of dirt. oh wait, people DO still believe that.

so, i totally agree with what youre saying, rose immortal. i just think that non- and peudo-sciencetists ideas should come with some kind of warning label - "not tested; believe at your own risk".
 
Katabasis said:
However I do not think that occultism is any more a psuedo-science than science is a form of pseudo-occultism.
:)

What? this doesnt make any sense. is there some kind of "occult method" i wasnt taught about in college? science is the best system because it is a method, it's testable, and it's peer-reviewed. yeah, it's flawed, but pseudo-science has NONE of those three facets. would you like to be using a computer based on occultism? you could blame some deity when it doesnt work eh?

- yes - most of my points I was about to make have just been made by Marfrozzi et al. Thank you for throwing a spanner in the proverbial works of 'omniscient' science.

see my last post. please dont put words in my mouth. that makes me look close-minded.

ps: i agree with your thoughts on ancient judaism. i cant remember what i said about satan versus occultism but i think i was mistaken whatever it was.

uhhh, the second paragraph above is mine. i dont know how to get it out of italics. dumb.
 
Of course, while one side of theology--which was more a political system than the actual heart of the religion--denied that the Earth orbits the sun, one should also bear in mind that scientists such as Galileo, Kepler, and Newton did in fact retain their beliefs at the same time as they made their discoveries. The way that I believe they viewed it would go somewhat like this: that science is indeed the most accurate way to describe the environment and the mechanisms by which we can understand and interact with natural processes, whereas spirituality/religion (in their case Christianity) was the means by which humankind could know its place IN this pattern, and make value judgments about how to deal with the consequences of knowledge. Even Darwin, whose discoveries created such a major philosophical rift, subscribed to a similar school of thought.

I think that in their mindset there was simply no reason for the two (science and religion) to be in conflict...you could say that they considered one the "how" and the other the "why", and that the two not only coexist in peace, but are two sides of the very same thing. People who subscribe to this school of thought are quite different from the literalists that I think (unfortunately) many people have come to associate first and foremost with religion. In this way, there is no reason that of faith and science (or rationalism or reason), that one must hinder the other. Now...I'm gonna get a bit personal here, so understand this is just me speaking, but personally, I actually find the beauty of the way things work, of natural processes, to be so great that it gives me reassurances from a faith perspective. I haven't had to shut my rational mind off to do this.

BTW, if you're on the subject of disclaimers, I think that what you consider true scientists should also have a disclaimer, something like: "Warning--subject to change pending further investigation." After all, our science is in a continuous state of flux. ;)
 
Rose Immortal said:
Of course, if you're on the subject of disclaimers, I think that what you consider true scientists should also have a disclaimer, something like: "Warning--subject to change pending further investigation." After all, our science is in a continuous state of flux.
heh. thats awesome. i totally agree. (all "true scientists" i know DO subscribe to such a disclaimer, by the way; theyd be naive not to).
 
BTW, dorian, my post just doubled in size while you were writing your reply. Just thought I should give you fair warning. :Spin:
 
Rose Immortal said:
whereas spirituality/religion (in their case Christianity) was the means by which humankind could know its place IN this pattern, and make value judgments about how to deal with the consequences of knowledge.... I think that in their mindset there was simply no reason for the two (science and religion) to be in conflict...you could say that they considered one the "how" and the other the "why", and that the two not only coexist in peace, but are two sides of the very same thing.
good thoughts. i ask though, why do humans feel the need to assume they are part of something bigger? why is there a "place" for them "IN this pattern"? that annoys me. i have no need to assume im anything special. theres nothing unique or special about anything. its all random. faith-based folks believe otherwise and thats cool. theres just no evidence for it.

honestly though, it doesnt have much of an effect on everyday life. what makes the difference if you believe in satan or trees or jesus or allah or whatever when youre starving? i guarantee the guy who looks for food is going to find it while the guy who prays for or conjures up food will die. every time.

one point i like to make to myself when i start to think otherwise is that modern humans were around a long time before religion, language, speech, chiefdoms, societies, or the sedentary lifestyle (farming as opposed to hunting and gathering) that allowed them to create such myths as occultism.
 
The one thing I'd like to point out here is that, just as faith and reason need not cancel each other out, faith does not mean inaction--one is not the opposite of the other. At least the way I've always perceived it, I as a reasoning human being am to use whatever tools I have at my disposal to the best extent possible. For example, in your food situation, I would certainly be on an active hunt, and not simply sitting on my rear. Yeah, I'd be praying, but believe me, I'd be doing so on my feet, on the move, and with my brain fully in gear. ;)

As for the other question, I could take up so long answering it that I think you'd be fast asleep by the time I posted a response! :Smug: <--the closest I can find to a drowsy smilie.
 
i dig that but if you knew you were doing something useless, wouldnt you stop doing it? the uselesness im talking about is praying and you would find out how useless if you tested it by making it your only action - a controlled experiment!

i agree with you about faith and reason not needing to cancel each other out but i question the efficiency of using faith along with reason. use the above example: praying may help you in some capacity, say, reduced anxiety, but it WILL NOT provide you with food. further, the more you didnt find any food, the less your praying would reduce your anxiety and the less praying would mean to you, ultimately discarding it altogether as your need to survive grew stronger. not a very good argument i know, but i think you can see what im getting at.....

the bottom line is this, im nearly convinced that testing faith-based ideas in a controlled environment would demonstrate them to be false. notice i said "nearly". im enjoying your thoughts here.
 
I can see where you're going with your argument, and there's no question you've given thought to it. The one problem with empirically testing prayer is that we don't yet have the capacity to measure all that may possibly be involved. Without that, there are a lot of things that could wind up affecting the results that we wouldn't be accounting for in our experimental setup. I don't just say this on the grounds of forces that I know you will bring into question...the thing is that we don't even have full command of the observed physical processes of the universe. That leaves just as much chance of contamination as does allowing other actions (i.e. an active search).

Now, this is just my approach here, but I've always seen prayer as an interaction as opposed to a unidirectional thing. That is, action on our part is demanded, and can't be removed. We can't just expect that we should have no part in running our lives at all, that is, to expend no energy whatsoever. That energy is in us and something has to be done with it--it can't just be allowed to dissipate inside of us. The trouble with that experimental setup all gets down to this interaction--as we well know, the more interactions and external factors that get into an experimental design, the more and more trouble you're going to have distinguishing them from one another.

About what happens as you continue not to find food, there are really two possibilities here--yes, I think some people probably would discard prayer in the lack of visible relief, and find it meaningless. Others, however, would not give it up, even if they ultimately found nothing. In some cases, these people may well end up pushing past what their bodies would ordinarily allow--getting a better chance at getting out of that survival situation. Of course, some would indeed die. But then you have to wonder what the desirable outcome is in the first place.

It gets a bit dicey to even use visible positive outcomes as your measure because then you'll get into a whole question about exactly what outcome you're looking for. Survival is measurable--but is it the only possible factor? After all, you can survive in body but be devoid of empathy or apathetic or burned out on drugs, etc. Even happiness as a possible criterion measure can be brought into question, as Aristotle did--because then you get into the question of what sort of happiness is to be "counted" and what sort isn't. According to Aristotle, for instance, happiness, virtue, etc. that were born out of ignorance or from never having one's virtue tested are not to be counted (ruling out a purely hedonistic approach to pleasure: i.e. if it satisfies me then it's good).

Whew...long winded, I know...to sum it up, if you do try to set up that sort of controlled experiment, it's going to run into a huge number of problems before it even gets off the ground.
 
thoughtful, but im confused. are you saying one wouldnt be able to conduct an experiment to test prayer becasue there are too many unknown factors? perhaps youre right. however, wouldnt the subjects prayer be considered the hypothesis in the study? i mean, if i pray that my hair grows longer, thats pretty much it right? im the creator of the prayer no? therefore, that should be able to be tested without question.

your second paragraph is interesting but i dont understand what youre getting at with the energy stuff. please explain further.

also, what "problems" would one run into with the experiment?

interesting.....

also, may i ask what is your spiritual background? mine is christian turned agnostic with continued strong christian influences (wife and all friends are christians and i still go to church)......
 
Yes, my main argument is that you're going to run into too many unknown factors...in order to run an experiment you've got to get an entirely closed system, and I'm not convinced we could do that with prayer. And when you can't do that, you can't run a scientific experiment.

About this notion of energy, I guess I didn't do too good of a job there, explaining. What I'm trying to get into is the notion that prayer is not intended to be a passive process, which is what I get the impression this experiment would restrict the subject to. Yes, there are times for passive contemplation, but at other times, I believe that we are called upon to respond actively, to expend some degree of energy that is within us (physical certainly, and while just as untestable as prayer itself, I would also say spiritual). That is, sometimes the response to a prayer is a call to action. If you take out the possibility for an experimental subject to take any action, you're potentially interfering with the process, and thus contaminating the results of the experiment.

As for a summation of what the problems would be, on one hand, you'd have some that resulted from too many outside factors (known and unknown) on the experiment, and on the other you could run into problems by removing too many factors that might turn out to be necessary, and thus interfering with the very thing you're trying to study. Now, you give an example where your criterion measure is a tangible thing, but I'm afraid the variable in question isn't quite a sensible one. After all, whether or not one agrees about the origin of it, we have already got a process by which our hair will grow without our consideration of it. Now, I have heard of experiments run in which some people with serious illnesses were prayed for--the patients themselves who were in fact being prayed for were not told this was the case. While I can't remember the exact setup nor where I read this, I would assume that in a sound experimental procedure this would've been a double-blind experiment...that is, their caretakers wouldn't know which was which, either (this keeps a "placebo effect" from occurring). I remember reading that some sort of correlation did emerge, but cannot remember anything about how strong it may have been. Of course, in THAT case, a lot of external factors had to be allowed in (their particular health issues and medical histories could perhaps be made close but would still have tremendous variation, they'd be influenced by caretakers, families, individual mindsets, patients' OWN prayers which we may not even know about, etc.). So, I recognize that you've got something that, while interesting, is still not going to be acceptable to the scientific community. In general, it's my reasoning that prayer and faith simply defy empirical measurement, and these are the main reasons why.

As for my spiritual background, I have deliberately refused to speak of it until this point, because I preferred for you to see my reasoning first, and form an impression of me first based on that. I am Christian, Methodist specifically, and I have been since I was old enough to understand the concept. I'd describe myself as having come from (in a religious sense) a liberal background--that is, I don't come from a literalist tradition, and have never been discouraged from reasoning or asking questions. I have done a pretty thorough investigation into other traditions and philosophies, but found nothing else that satisfied me...that's including philosophical grounds as well as my feeling, as I've never felt that "blind faith" did anyone any good. Basically, I'd describe myself as the kind of person who can easily irritate both the extremely liberal and the extremely conservative at the very same time! ;)
 
Glad to see people are still talking on this thread (even if the subject matter has deviated to such a strong degree that it doesn't match the subject line by any reasonable stretch of the imagination). I'm going to bed, I'll respond to your (dorian) response later.

P.S. - Looks like rose immortal is challenging my claim to the "longest post ever". :)