THE "B-WORD"

[J. Golden]

Hey Garth Brooks, this angle was proven invalid back in the 90's.
fight.

I know the CD sold once as new. But if te person buying it used purchased a new copy x band see more money. But no one will understand that because when it comes down to ones own pocket book nothing else matters. Oddly people can still ride a high horse.
Let me try to make it clearer.
If ones argument is that the bands see no money and that person thinks the band should then maybe they should do their partc and buy the albums new and do their part to donate to the bands wallet.
Now how can you not understand that? I'm not saying used CDs should not be sold, nor do I suggest it is the same as bootlegging. I'm saying that if anyone wants to stand up for a money not getting the rightful cut then don't be a hypocrite and buy used CDs because when one does they certainly are not contributing. Please by all means argue that logic down?

 

[J. Golden]

Bands are not necessarily the best source of information because some cry "bootleg" at anything.

Sure, could it be some labels sell off licenses without band approval or worse do it and not pay them their share? Sure, but labels like Scarecrow, Icarus, the Russian one, etc have access to layout files, etc provided by the labels so money is exchanged somewhere.

Truem Drenning said the Metal Minds are boots, I'm sure that did not stop anyone from buying them.

 

[TribunalRecords]

I know the CD sold once as new. But if te person buying it used purchased a new copy x band see more money. But no one will understand that because when it comes down to ones own pocket book nothing else matters. Oddly people can still ride a high horse.
Let me try to make it clearer.
If ones argument is that the bands see no money and that person thinks the band should then maybe they should do their partc and buy the albums new and do their part to donate to the bands wallet.
Now how can you not understand that? I'm not saying used CDs should not be sold, nor do I suggest it is the same as bootlegging. I'm saying that if anyone wants to stand up for a money not getting the rightful cut then don't be a hypocrite and buy used CDs because when one does they certainly are not contributing. Please by all means argue that logic down?

He we go.

1) the bands SAW the money on the first purchase.
2) by law, the artists can expect no money from a USED purchase
3) the bands, see NO MONEY from the pressing and sale of a bootleg CD (used or new)

I understand where you are going, but when a person buys a used CD the originating purchase went to the artist. is it the consumer's fault (?) that another person decided to:

a) buy the record and rip to their hard drive and sold cd
b) decided said album sucked and wasn't worth the purchase

again, it's a stretch to say bootlegs are the same as buying used CDs.

the originating sale went to the artist/label. the battle has been fought (and lost) over royalties due on second hand purchases.

I am pretty sure people on this forum buy enough NEW cds to offset used purchases. you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Truem Drenning said the Metal Minds are boots, I'm sure that did not stop anyone from buying them.

I will give Drenning credit for S&B and Astronmica boot call. but Roadrunner owns Transcendence and most likely s/t assuming Par sold it to Roadrunner.

But I have said publicly if someone is booting your albums offer up a real band supplied alternative, legally, and fans will support you in droves. Drenning hasn't because he doesn't own the rights. this was EXACT reference to my "bands cry bootleg" post earlier. Those with nothing to fear, don't. Those who fear, do.

 

[J. Golden]

you are STILL missing my point.
I realize the CD was originally once sold new and the band would get their cut, not arguing that at all. Nor am I even comparing boots and used, or arguing the fact of used CDs. Sure why should there not be a secondary market?
If people are so concerned about the artist making their money then why not go a buy the CD new oppose to use? This way those people are contributing to that artist, the same one getting ripped off by boots and illegal downlaods, all the the fucking same. The only difference is how people explain to themselves that it is not.

The answer is simple; people are willing to take a stand and say the band is not getting paid on those boots, but the guy buying the used CD is not willing to buy it new so the band can get that additional CD sale. So really are people actually supporting these artist in the long run?Of course not, we are all like this, half of my CDs I would not have if I had to pay full price just as everyone else. Hell Justin would have none if he had to pay over $2.00 But that secondary sale is not supporting any band just like the boot because it is robbing the band/label of that second sell.
I'm not so much comparing the used and the boot as I am pointing out that no one has really any room to speak up for artist if you buy used CDs oppose to buying them new. Ok I'm repeating myself and growing weary of this.

Maybe you do actually see my point but your responses suggest otherwise.

 

[J. Golden]

I will give Drenning credit for S&B and Astronmica boot call. but Roadrunner owns Transcendence and most likely s/t assuming Par sold it to Roadrunner.

But I have said publicly if someone is booting your albums offer up a real band supplied alternative, legally, and fans will support you in droves. Drenning hasn't because he doesn't own the rights. this was EXACT reference to my "bands cry bootleg" post earlier. Those with nothing to fear, don't. Those who fear, do.

i have heard other bands cry it

 

[Spiner202]

Is everything from Metal Mind a bootleg? I have quite a bit of Artillery stuff from them, and I think some other releases as well.

My issue with bootlegs is that nobody is clear about it. If you want to buy bootlegs, that's fine, but I don't, and I hate not knowing that I bought something that didn't support the label or artist.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Is everything from Metal Mind a bootleg? I have quite a bit of Artillery stuff from them, and I think some other releases as well.

My issue with bootlegs is that nobody is clear about it. If you want to buy bootlegs, that's fine, but I don't, and I hate not knowing that I bought something that didn't support the label or artist.

I have on good authority that the Roadrunner/MM stuff is legit. They came to RR with an initial proposal to license 50 titles at once. So you throw that kind of money at a label they are going to do it and they did. I believe they did the same thing with Nuclear Blast.

I have tried to license other RR titles and despite my connection saying he would love to see it happen, he basically said it wouldn't be worth the label's time to even consider it.

I do think that one of the main problems is 20+ years have passed and bands don't have copies of their contracts or even labels don't have copies and just assume they own it still (which could be the case). it really is a very common problem these days. I personally have read an old Earache and New Renaissance contract and those labels own the particular album contained in contracts i read, forever. I have heard from another good source that ALL Earache contracts from back then were the same crappy deal.

Bottom line this industry is ugly at times. You have records being held hostage by major labels because they don't care about even considering licensing and them pressing it is out of the question because 1,000 unit is a waste of time.

To me the most important thing is getting the music back out there (in physical form) for people to enjoy and that is what I try and do.

I know people have issues with this stuff and that is fine, but I just want to shed some light on how crazy it can be on the inside.

 

[Justin G]

Rant

Does this make it simpler? One of those things is illegal. The other is not. One thing put money in a band's pocket. The other did not.

Yes, it would benefit a band more if I bought every CD new, but at least they got paid once from what I'm buying. And making me out to be a cheap bastard when it comes to CDs is fine by me. I am a cheap bastard when it comes to CDs. It allows me to buy...more CDs.

 

[J. Golden]

It is not just majors holding albums hostage.

 

[Justin G]

Bands are not necessarily the best source of information because some cry "bootleg" at anything.

Sure, could it be some labels sell off licenses without band approval or worse do it and not pay them their share? Sure, but labels like Scarecrow, Icarus, the Russian one, etc have access to layout files, etc provided by the labels so money is exchanged somewhere.

Fair point (Crimson Glory comes to mind), but I'd all but guarantee CD Maximum isn't licensed to do the Judas Priest and Iron Maiden catalogs. And if you've ever seen their versions you'd know for sure they're not legit.

 

[J. Golden]

Fair point (Crimson Glory comes to mind), but I'd all but guarantee CD Maximum isn't licensed to do the Judas Priest and Iron Maiden catalogs. And if you've ever seen their versions you'd know for sure they're not legit.

So guessing there is no possibility that labels can license stuff out to anywhere around the world right.
Just because the packaging looks cheap does not say it is a bootleg. Large retail chains have sold crappy versions for years this doesn't say they were selling boots. Then again maybe they were, I have seen so many different labels pushing Alice Cooper, Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc, who can tell what is what anymore.

 

[HeavyGabry]

In my experience, russian and south american packages don't look as cheap as people imagine them.
Only in one case I had a problem: in "Piece Of Time" released by Icarus, last demo track can't arrive to the end of the running time, both on stereo and PC. Fortunately, that's not a necessary track.
Right now I'm getting in touch for some more rare russian releases...

 

[TribunalRecords]

In my experience, russian and south american packages don't look as cheap as people imagine them.
Only in one case I had a problem: in "Piece Of Time" released by Icarus, last demo track can't arrive to the end of the running time, both on stereo and PC. Fortunately, that's not a necessary track.
Right now I'm getting in touch for some more rare russian releases...

I have an UNMOORED Russian pressing that looks pretty damn good. It was only way to get the CD anymore, actually. So I went for it.

The Scarecrow pressings I have only noticed issues with their digipacks being make out of crappy materials.

 

[StormSpell]

Ask the bands if those are "licensed" CDs and you may get a different perspective, at least from what I've heard.

CD-Maximum started as bootleg label by cranking tons of 2-on-1 bootlegs of many well-known bands such as Blind Guardian, Iced Earth, etc, etc. Then when the bootlegging really become a global issue with those bootlegs leaking on eBay and spreading around, some major labels like Nuclear Blast and Roadrunner etc. cut a special deal with CD-Maximum giving them a special license to press their releases exclusively for the Russian market and CIS territories.

This way CD-Maximum became legal within their designated territory and also started to police the local market preventing further local bootlegging. So this was an added bonus to the western companies.

Of course CD-Maximum and other similar labels like Irond, etc. only pay handful of cents per copy in licensing fees, and not much, if any of those go to the bands. But it is not really their fault.

In their defense their CDs do retail for $6-8 on the Russian market, and wholesale for $3-4, so there's not much room for lavish licensing fees, given the standard of living over there. Their products are what is called a gray market when exported outside of their designated region, and non-Russian fans should know that buying it will not directly support the band. It is not really different than buying a Japanese import.

The funny thing is, Russian pressings are always packaged greatly, with booklets printed on premium thick heavy paper and real inks (not the cheap-ass recycled flimsy thin paper and soy based oily smearing crap we are offered here via China). Russian pressings usually look way better than the original western releases. I so much wish I could have the quality small labels like Metalism Records produce with their releases - for a fraction of what we pay here never the less...

 

[StormSpell]

I personally have read an old Earache and New Renaissance contract and those labels own the particular album contained in contracts i read, forever. I have heard from another good source that ALL Earache contracts from back then were the same crappy deal.

Heavy Artillery were the same. However, the thing is, such labels only own the particular master recordings of those albums. Sometime during the 90s there was a law that passed and it is illegal anymore to absorb copyrights.

So basically there are two licensing fees to be paid when a label wants to license a recording:

1. Master usage fee - which gives you the right to use and reproduce the master recording of the particular album - those are usually owned by the original labels who (presumably) paid for the recoding of the album.

2. Mechanical licensing rights - which are basically the cut for the songwriter / owner of the copyrights over the music - usually the band

So when labels like Metal Mind "license" releases from Roadrunner (Master usage fees), they should also pay mechanical licensing rights, which I assume they don't, and bands get zilch.

Paying mechanical licensing rights is actually quite easy. There is a unified statutory rate, and you can pay those fees directly through online services like Harryfox.com or songclearance.com. The rates are approx $0.10 per song on 1000 pressing run, which means you will be paying like $1 per pop when pressing an album with 10 songs on 1000 CDs.

OR contact the copyright holder and cut a deal straight with them - they do get only like 50% of the fees paid via the agencies, so one can cut a better deal directly. Besides it is always way better to re-issue with the direct involvement of the band anyway.

95% of the indy labels do not know this, and simply "license" from old labels and then leave the bands cold.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Heavy Artillery were the same. However, the thing is, such labels only own the particular master recordings of those albums. Sometime during the 90s there was a law that passed and it is illegal anymore to absorb copyrights.

So basically there are two licensing fees to be paid when a label wants to license a recording:

1. Master usage fee - which gives you the right to use and reproduce the master recording of the particular album - those are usually owned by the original labels who (presumably) paid for the recoding of the album.

2. Mechanical licensing rights - which are basically the cut for the songwriter / owner of the copyrights over the music - usually the band

So when labels like Metal Mind "license" releases from Roadrunner (Master usage fees), they should also pay mechanical licensing rights, which I assume they don't, and bands get zilch.

Paying mechanical licensing rights is actually quite easy. There is a unified statutory rate, and you can pay those fees directly through online services like Harryfox.com or songclearance.com. The rates are approx $0.10 per song on 1000 pressing run, which means you will be paying like $1 per pop when pressing an album with 10 songs on 1000 CDs.

OR contact the copyright holder and cut a deal straight with them - they do get only like 50% of the fees paid via the agencies, so one can cut a better deal directly. Besides it is always way better to re-issue with the direct involvement of the band anyway.

95% of the indy labels do not know this, and simply "license" from old labels and then leave the bands cold.

^ all correct, but it's .091 cents a song. unless they raised it recently.