the best of the sellouts

[J.]

My take on In Flames:

Their pre-Anders Friden material is their best. Stanne is the obvious better vocalist, and the Lunar Strain material is actually interesting all the way through. Henke Forss was the best vocalist In FLames ever had. All of Subterranean kicks the crap out of anything after and before. It's a shame Forss' main band didn't get the recognition they deserved. Hope fully they will with the rumored upcoming album.

Jester Race is OK. I don't see why so many people cream themselves over it though. It's got some good song like Moonshield, Dead Eternity and Wayfaerer's Song, but when I listen to it, I can't listen to the whole thing. I just pick the good songs.

Whoracle blows. It has one good song, Jester Script Transfigured. Jotun is OK. Other than, the album sucks. Episode 666 is the most overrated IF song ever. It's so basic, by-the-numbers thrashy melo-death.

Colony is the only worthy successor to Subterranean. Friden finally found his balls on this release and let his vocal chords loose. He sounds solid all the way through, and the band hides his crappy clean vocals with layered growls and good music. There is some filler, but the good outnumbers the bad. Resin is the most overlooked IF song on any album. THe first 5 songs on the album are great, as is Coerced Coexistence. The only "bleh" songs are the last two. There is a big difference between Colony and Clayman. Like phyre said, the songwriting was at its best here, and the band obviously saved all their brutality (I use that word loosely) for Colony, as Whoracle barely had any. This is the best of Friden-era IF.

Clayman is just boring melo-death by numbers. All of the surprises were used on COlony. This is Colony-lite. Pinball Map takes the silver medal (Episode 666 takes the gold) for most overrated IF song. Bullet Ride and Swim are the only redeeming songs on the album. Other than those two, like phyre said: Clayman is "Just a bland grey mass of half-assed crud."

Other than the title track, R2R is not even half-assed crud. It's crap.

 

[Erik]

That's YOUR opinion. I'm not a big fan of opinions stated as if they were facts.

I'm not a big fan of having to explain, every time someone says what you are saying, that it is OBVIOUS that, when discussing such subjective matters as music, what one states is merely an opinion. If you don't think it is, please insert "I think" before my post and that's sorted out.

 

[Dark One]

I'm not a big fan of having to explain, every time someone says what you are saying, that it is OBVIOUS that, when discussing such subjective matters as music, what one states is merely an opinion. If you don't think it is, please insert "I think" before my post and that's sorted out.

Sigh.... ok dude, absolutely, positively OF COURSE IT'S OBVIOUS that it's your opinion. The fact that it's your opinion is fine, no problem. And yeah, it's really not that big a deal, but I just see it as a little pompous, particularly when an opinion is so harshly critical as yours was to phrase it in a way that makes it look like you can't see how anyone could disagree with you as if anyone who feels differently is an idiot or something. Now I know that's not what you're thinking, but it's just the way it tends to come across, that's all. I don't see how hard it is to put like IMO, or I feel, OR I think or anything like that before phrasing such a harsh opinion. For example, Dreamlord wrote "My take on In Flames...." & Papa Josh wrote "My opinion on In Flames is as follows...."

Or just, something 1st person oriented, Like "I see R2R as a stinking pile of garbage!!" vs "R2R is a stinking pile of garbage!!" (as if it were universally accepted as a given or something)

It's alright though man, I just wanted to get my point across. Just a personal pet peeve. No hard feelings.

 

[Erik]

Oh, sure. It's just that I quoted a bit of JayKeeley's message where he asked how people could like Colony but dislike Clayman -- as I do -- and then what I wrote was my answer to his question. Maybe I come off as harsh and/or pompous but I really find few redeeming qualities in Clayman while I like Colony a lot, so some harshness is to be expected. As you said though, no hard feelings.

 

[Dark One]

Oh, sure. It's just that I quoted a bit of JayKeeley's message where he asked how people could like Colony but dislike Clayman -- as I do -- and then what I wrote was my answer to his question. Maybe I come off as harsh and/or pompous but I really find few redeeming qualities in Clayman while I like Colony a lot, so some harshness is to be expected. As you said though, no hard feelings.

Hey, no problem. Even if your opinion is way harsh it's totally cool, and I'm sure other people would agree with you, it's only the way it was phrased.

We definitely all find certain releases to have very few redeeming characteristics from time to time. For myself, the new Stratovarius and Axis of Perdition are bands I think put out very low quality releases this year. Hell, I think they suck ass!!!

Heh, well there ya go.

 

[JayKeeley]

... phrase it in a way that makes it look like you can't see how anyone could disagree with you as if anyone who feels differently is an idiot or something. Now I know that's not what you're thinking, but it's just the way it tends to come across, that's all.

Yes, that is what I was trying to articulate about other people in other forums. Don't you guys witness this in the other forums? Each time I see it, I just turnaround and leave because it's the same argument over and over - just different band / different album topic.

It's like, 'how could I even possibly think that R2R could be any good when there are 100 people who say otherwise? I mean, if we all stick together and say R2R is rubbish, then it becomes a fact and we all need to be on the winning team! Yay!'.

Again, that's not aimed at anyone here - just the masses. Being 32, I've seen this happen over the years: When South of Heaven came out, people dissed Slayer like you would not believe. When Somewhere in Time came out, IM got slaughtered. The bands got killed for trying something new, and fans couldn't handle the change.

@Dreamlord - much appreciated for your explanation. I really do respect it, but I have to disagree (but only a little).

Here's my take:

I GUARANTEE that I will not be listening to Jester Race in 5 years time. I also know that I will not be listening to R2R in 5 years time. You know why? Because I don't listen to either of them now!! In fact, when I think about it, I've never been able to listen to Jester Race in one sitting. I don't deny that it's pretty magnificient though, but I do know that lots of people think likewise just because of what the masses think.

(It's almost a given that everyone is expected to bow down and pray towards Jester Race, Mirrorworlds, and Slaughter of the Soul.) I like them all, but I liked them without having to check with the forum opinions first.

And R2R came at a time when I was sick to death of Gothenburg melo-death, and I found it to be 'different'. I like the fact that they took a slight diversion. Who would have thought that all this hoopla would occur. I didn't even mind the clean vocals on it. Go figure.

The In Flames albums that will last for me will probably be Colony and Clayman. The band hit a peak for me with those two, and I honestly hear very little difference in the songwriting ability between the two. Why they have that lasting appeal is a combination of things - and it's never just on music alone (although it's a significant factor).

I actually think that Whoracle is the worst of the bunch. Not daring, and little conviction in the playing. I find that to be a 'bland grey mass of half-assed crud'. When they do some of the stuff live though, it's much better.

In Flames are like Iced Earth to me - much better live than in the studio.

 

[HarmonyDies....]

R2R is just a flat out catchy, fun album. Nothing more. I guess it's good if you're having a birthday party. Nothing I want from In Flames. Oh and as for best In Flames song.

EVERLOST!

 

[Black Winter Day]

december flower, baby!

 

[NAD]

When South of Heaven came out, people dissed Slayer like you would not believe.

Perfect example. I first got into Slayer a year or two after Seasons in the Abyss came out, and avoided South of Heaven up until a few years ago because I had only heard horrible things about it. Well screw the masses, because that is one incredible album! Just shy of their one masterpiece, Divine Intervention.

 

[Dark One]

december flower, baby!

Believe it or not, I'll go with the New Word. I guess it's an unusual choice, but no other In Flames song pumps me up like that one does. I can't really explain why, it's just so explosive.

Other all time favorites include Upon An Oaken Throne, Goliaths Disarm Their Davids, Stand Ablaze, Dead Eternity, Wayfaerer, The Hive, Jotun, Coerced Coexistence, Embody the Invisible, Zombie, Inc., Bullet Ride, Brush the Dust Away, Another Day In Quicksand, Metaphor, Free Fall & Dark Signs

 

[Erik]

I actually think that Whoracle is the worst of the bunch. Not daring, and little conviction in the playing. I find that to be a 'bland grey mass of half-assed crud'. When they do some of the stuff live though, it's much better.

Whoracle is my second least favourite (I don't even count RTR .)

My favourite, of course, is the almighty Lunar Strain. Can't beat Lunar Strain. "Everlost pt. 2" and "Upon An Oaken Throne" alone make it In Flames' best record.

 

[JayKeeley]

Perfect example. I first got into Slayer a year or two after Seasons in the Abyss came out, and avoided South of Heaven up until a few years ago because I had only heard horrible things about it. Well screw the masses, because that is one incredible album! Just shy of their one masterpiece, Divine Intervention.

You see, South of Heaven followed Reign in Blood. So everyone was expecting Reign in Blood part 2. Also, it wasn't as manic, so people complained that they softened up. So it became a black marked album. Very unfair right?

99.999999% of In Flames fans keep / kept hoping for Jester Race part 2 and never got it. And so the hatred grew gradually.

I think that if some unknown band came out with Clayman etc, it wouldn't be dissed as much. I think certain bands have expectations put upon them by the fans because of the precedence they set in their earlier years. Unlucky for bands who start with a strong debut - because they'll never be able to match it. It's pretty hostile really.

And meanwhile there are other bands that come out of the woodwork and transcend the forefathers:

Bathory (viking) -> Falkenbach
Helloween -> Edguy
In Flames -> Soilwork

 

[NAD]

And if you repeat your strong debut, you get slammed for rehashing. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Erik]

I think that if some unknown band came out with Clayman etc, it wouldn't be dissed as much.

Of course, because if another band released Reroute to Remain as a debut album, it wouldn't have to be consumed by In Flames' fanbase and it wouldn't have the expectations set by previous In Flames albums on it. It would simply appeal to another audience -- think Limp Bizkit fans, he he he.

And if you repeat your strong debut, you get slammed for rehashing. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Fortunately there are bands that reinvent themselves with each release and manage to stay relevant and maintain artistic integrity -- see Ulver. Although there will always be people who won't listen to anything but Bergtatt it is very hard for anyone with half a clue to deny that most of what Ulver has ever released is music of great quality and that they haven't "sold out."

 

[Dark One]

Of course, because if another band released Reroute to Remain as a debut album, it wouldn't have to be consumed by In Flames' fanbase and it wouldn't have the expectations set by previous In Flames albums on it. It would simply appeal to another audience -- think Limp Bizkit fans, he he he.

Hehehe..... awww c'mon man, even for everything you've been saying about R2R today, that was low

Fortunately there are bands that reinvent themselves with each release and manage to stay relevant and maintain artistic integrity -- see Ulver. Although there will always be people who won't listen to anything but Bergtatt it is very hard for anyone with half a clue to deny that most of what Ulver has ever released is music of great quality and that they haven't "sold out."

Yep, pretty much agreed here. You could say the same for Arcturus as well. So many people were shocked when we got La Masquerade Infernale instead of another AHS. And they were so shocked, they didn't give it a chance and failed to see what I feel is an absolutely amazing album. Then they broke the barriers again with The Sham Mirrors, so much so that fans now have no idea what to expect with each release........... except for the ones like myself that know that it will be, as you say, of great quality.

 

[NAD]

Ulver is the proverbial middle finger to those that cry "sell-out." Just one more reason to love them.

Honestly I get a bit annerved when people call any extreme metal band a sell-out. Any band willing to put their balls on the line to the most rabid (and sometimes psychotic) fans in the music business in exchange for struggling away in the underground barely making a living while working a regular job in addition to touring 365 days of the year can't possibly sell-out. Not that I always enjoy the direction bands end up in, but I don't call them sellouts.

Rant over.

 

[JayKeeley]

It would simply appeal to another audience -- think Limp Bizkit fans, he he he.

Behave yourself young lad. :Smokedev:

Honestly, have you EVER liked something, and felt that you shouldn't make it public for fear of 'tarnishing your image' or 'losing credibility' because, you know, in the metal world, "you are what you listen to"? Come on, admit it, you like Dolly Parton don't you?

Fortunately there are bands that reinvent themselves with each release and manage to stay relevant and maintain artistic integrity -- see Ulver.

And then there are those that are just fucking bored with doing the same shit over and over, and decide that they don't want to sell shoes all their lives -- see Al Bundy.

 

[NAD]

Honestly, have you EVER liked something, and felt that you shouldn't make it public for fear of 'tarnishing your image' or 'losing credibility' because, you know, in the metal world, "you are what you listen to"? Come on, admit it, you like Dolly Parton don't you?

I like the Oakridge Boys. I am untr00.

 

[Demonspell]

Bands like Arcturus and Ulver exist to defy convention, so in their case judging a new release against the older albums, as many did with The Sham Mirrors, misses the point completely and results in failure to listen to their music objectively.

Now if R2R had been a debut album, it would probably be lumped in with those who got on the nu-metal bandwagon at the height of backlash against the genre, and we would never hear from its creators again...

 

[J.]

Honestly, have you EVER liked something, and felt that you shouldn't make it public for fear of 'tarnishing your image' or 'losing credibility' because, you know, in the metal world, "you are what you listen to"? Come on, admit it, you like Dolly Parton don't you?

Nope. But you're right, there are fans that base their music purchases on others' opinions.

I like some country music. I listen to 93Q Country all day while at work. My fave song is "Seminole Wind", by ?????I have no idea.

Hell, I even gave Jelly Jam and Jughead positive reviews.

I'd rather be known as being honest and true to myself than give people what they want to hear/read.