The Most Hated Family in America

[JBroll]

This is a really hard question to answer because I didn't invent marriage. I would contend that God created marriage so He gets to set the rules for what's right and what's not. Biblically I can show the immorality of homosexuality, I can also show you practically the reasons for hetrosexual marriage/relationships. However beyond there I can't contend for much against it, which is where usually a person coming from a non-Christian background would find more authority. I also have to be careful because there is still a distinction between marriage and relationships.

There's plenty of polygamy in the Bible, where's my harem? I want to see televangelists 'pimpin' it like King David, bastards...

Marriage outdates your religion and its predecessors, and has a quite unflattering background as a property exchange ritual, so for any religion to claim 'ownership' of marriage is simply absurd.

Homosexuality occurs in nature, and isn't something people have control over. Any condemnation of homosexuality can't be taken more seriously than condemnation of shellfish, proximity to menstruating women, or backtalking children.

Jeff

 

[JBroll]

HOLYFUCKBIGPOSTGRAAAAAAAAAAAUWR!

Wrong thread, chief. Check a few below this one.

Jeff

 

[SocialNumb]

What he said, I asked the question.

 

[spioraid]

There's plenty of polygamy in the Bible, where's my harem? I want to see televangelists 'pimpin' it like King David, bastards...

Right, and in those cases (as in all) it's not right. Just because something was recorded in the Bible doesn't mean it's there for justification.

Marriage outdates your religion and its predecessors, and has a quite unflattering background as a property exchange ritual, so for any religion to claim 'ownership' of marriage is simply absurd.

For Christianity? Of course. Christianity didn't start until Jesus came. The point of Christianity is that Jesus came and fulfilled the Hebrew law and God's people shared a new covenant with God. So yes, for good reason a lot of things outdate Christianity. The earliest mention of an organized marriage that I can find is early Hebrew writings or writings of cultures that existed at the same time. If you've found something else I'd more that happy to see it.

Homosexuality occurs in nature, and isn't something people have control over. Any condemnation of homosexuality can't be taken more seriously than condemnation of shellfish, proximity to menstruating women, or backtalking children.

Agreed to a point. Yes homosexuality is naturally occurring want/need/genetic disposition/what have you, but just because something is natural doesn't mean it's right.

Guys keep in mind I'm putting these things through the authority of the Bible. You're not. We're obviously going to disagree over a great many points. The reason for my original post is to show that not all Christians are like that, and in fact are quite hurtful to other Christians who are making a valid and sincere effort to what the Bible teaches. Please don't challenge that aspect either unless you have read the Bible in a decent translation, understood what is literal and what is metaphorical, what is still valid and what has been fulfilled and is there for historical context only. Jeff made the wonderful example of polygamy, it's wrong then, it's wrong now.

Please reserve any further questions/comments/insults to my PM box. This is turning into another religion thread when originally it was for observation on some seriously hateful people.

 

[JBroll]

I also mentioned its predecessors (namely Judaism) - marriage outdates recorded history.

Why is polygamy wrong? Given the massive number of 'good' characters who did it - and the *shockingly* few instances of bad things occurring even indirectly as a result of polygamy - I don't see what you're standing on.

My point is that either God created evil - making him evil - or it didn't - contradicting Biblical authority and natural evidence.

Anyway, we'll transplant that to another thread eventually, but the main point of this post is that marriage outdates any reliable historical record we have, despite the claims of many that it was meant for some purpose by its 'creator' - surprisingly often the speaker's favorite deity. Seeing as how this is a Phelps thread, and Phelps bitches about gays, this discussion is (by my standards, at least) on-topic.

Jeff

 

[26]

... but just because something is natural doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Metaltastic]

I still haven't seen an answer as to what's wrong with homosexuality?

 

[JBroll]

Some twit who probably hadn't even discovered crop rotation decided it was naughty.

Jeff

 

[Chryst Krispies]

THIS THREAD IS OVER.

 

[SocialNumb]

That is WIN!

 

[Metaltastic]

Hahahahaha, hear hear!

 

[abyssofdreams]

I still haven't seen an answer as to what's wrong with homosexuality?

It is morally wrong for some close-minded conservative pricks and it is wrong in the [fill in religion of your choice] meaning.

My view is... if people hate/do not like homosexuals or their actions that's fine as long as they do not harm anyone. Same with racism, if you feel like you don't get along with whatever race that is okay, I can tolerate that as long as they do not harm anyone with their problems and shut the fuck up.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Agreed to a point. Yes homosexuality is naturally occurring want/need/genetic disposition/what have you, but just because something is natural doesn't mean it's right.
.

As I stated before, just because something appears in the Bible, it does not necessarily make it right, either. Personally, I'd trust nature over the bible about getting things 'right' but that's my opinion.

 

[aberration]

My view is... if people hate/do not like homosexuals or their actions that's fine as long as they do not harm anyone. Same with racism, if you feel like you don't get along with whatever race that is okay, I can tolerate that as long as they do not harm anyone with their problems and shut the fuck up.

Yes, but if your viewpoint is already precariously difficult to defend, the very existence of alternative viewpoints is threatening in and of itself. Meaning that a "live and let live" philosophy depends on a certain level of security in your own way of life.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

just because something is natural doesn't mean it's right.

Time for my "Douglas Adams 'Where God went wrong' moment!"


I've thought about this statement a great deal today & concluded that you've just admitted there is no God.

God, by definition in the bible (you know, that infallible book about talking snakes, pillars of salt, global circumnavigation 3000 years before Copernicus, you know: what Jerry Fallwell would call 'truth.') created the heavens and the earth. And, by extension, Nature. Nature, created by God, is therefore perfect. However, since there is Homosexual activity in the animal kingdom, this leads us to conclude, and I'm quoting you, " just because something is natural doesn't mean it's right."

Well, isn't that a real mindfuck? If something immoral such as animal homosexuality occurs in the natural world, I submit to you that nature was not created by a perfect God, who, in his perfect wisdom, would have made all the creatures in the animal kingdom heterosexual. No sir, homosexuality in the animal kingdom is evidence of the non-existence of God. Hell, you could even say it's "proof." Proof of evolution, because evolution doesn't make morality judgments.



Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to prove that Black is really White & get myself killed at the next Zebra Crossing!

 

[hoehlentroll]

fundamental christs are gay

 

[spioraid]

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to prove that Black is really White & get myself killed at the next Zebra Crossing!

Haha! I heard that with the voice of David Attenborough.

First off thank you for taking the time to think about this 'outside' the realm of the board and came up with a conclusion. I know you don't have to, especially if it drives you nearly insane and won't sleep, rest or eat until I've receded my argument. Which I sincerely hope is not the case.

According to the Bible, yes, God created the heavens and earth. Including nature. Because of the absence of sin and evil at that time, God's creation; both nature and man were perfect. But because something was created by God doesn't mean it has the same attributes as God. Nature is not omniscient, omnipotent or omni-present. Nor is it omnibenevolent. So in that moment when Adam sinned, he fell short of the standard of God's perfection and nature followed because it was entrusted to him. Man became subject to things outside the perfection of God, as did nature and by extension homosexuality. So to answer your question and Marcus', homosexuality is deemed 'wrong' because it is outside of God's design for a perfect world.

So if you want to not believe something, let it be the talking snake, the creation of the universe in 6 days, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, etc. We can banter specifics till the cows come home but it's usually the general principle of the supremacy of God that we really disagree on, and from there derive our logical conclusions.

 

[JBroll]

That still doesn't explain how evil came to be in the perfect creation of a benevolent deity - it just shifts the burden slightly.

Jeff

 

[26]

for those who are interested in this, it´s known under the term Theodizee.

edit:

Theodicy in english, sorry

 

[26]

According to the Bible, yes, God created the heavens and earth. Including nature. Because of the absence of sin and evil at that time, God's creation; both nature and man were perfect. But because something was created by God doesn't mean it has the same attributes as God. Nature is not omniscient, omnipotent or omni-present. Nor is it omnibenevolent. So in that moment when Adam sinned, he fell short of the standard of God's perfection and nature followed because it was entrusted to him. Man became subject to things outside the perfection of God, as did nature and by extension homosexuality. So to answer your question and Marcus', homosexuality is deemed 'wrong' because it is outside of God's design for a perfect world.

So if you want to not believe something, let it be the talking snake, the creation of the universe in 6 days, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, etc. We can banter specifics till the cows come home but it's usually the general principle of the supremacy of God that we really disagree on, and from there derive our logical conclusions.

there are some interpretations of the bible`s storys made by hinduistic yogis that are really good and allow you to understand/accept the christian teaching in a way that don´t conflict with other religions, science or a healthy mind.

the way you seem to understand imo is pure belief and doesn`t differ from somebody who believes in Santa Clause.
sorry, but this how it reads for me....

peace