The nation under god?

[Sputnik]

Im very sick of this "God bless America" thing.

I live in sweden and I cant believe why media here is so American. I mean we should not see this terrorist attack with American-eyes. We should look at this accident with neutral eyes. Youre president Bush said that this was an attack on democracy and a attack on all democracy countries wich includes Sweden. This is so not true! This was an attack on America and I dont think we or other democracy countries should get involved in this. This is America against Asuma bin ladim who they guessing are the bad guy behind this and they demand to have this guy who they actually dont know did it??? How can they send forces to get a guy that they only are guessing is the responsible for the attack? This is just americas temporary scapegoat.

The media here demands us to have three minutes of silence for the victims of America. I just wonder...do you Americans interupt school education for a minute of silence on accidents that happens here or for example Afghanistan? And I cant really believe that this accident demands more silent minutes than other europeen accident. Right know american media is controlling our media, and thats just not right.

Terrorists did in this attack kill very many innocent people, wild guess about 10 000? This is horrible but thats like one third of the innocent people that were killed in Israels attack on Libanon in the beginning of the eightys. Military forces NOT included. Did we or you have one minute of silence in that accident???

United states of america is the massive killer in our time. Just the wars against Vietnam and some of the south-east-asian countries killed 4 million human lives. Not a single minute of silence...

President Bush speeches sounds very strange to us. In every sentence there is a god bless america thing and punish the bad guys on the other side thing. This nationalism, this patriotism feels so fake. And it seems that the American goverment do whatever they can to make this patriotism even stronger.
Its like brain wash...The Islam countries are using brain wash to get the people out to war, so are you!

Now America want to have there revange...the attack of world trade center was the other sides revenge and america is stupid enough to send forces out there that will kill more innocent people, non-American people. Is this smart? You are doing almost the same as the so called "terrorists" did.
They wanted revenge of many victims in their country, not for the living standard of USA.
I can sometimes understand why the muslim countries hate America so much. America isnt "the nation under god". America has done some very terrible things, some known things and some unknown things for Americans.

Muslim countries are controlled by media, so are you Americans...

The world trade center thing was terrible, and I cant understand why people do such horrible things, bot dont do the same on them!

I absolutely dont dislike Americans, but I dont like the politics of America. And American lifes is absolutely not more valuable than an Muslim life.

 

[E V I L]

First I don't like redundancy. There is another thread under the heading "is america a theocracy" dealing with the same concerns. But I'll reply anyway.

I mean we should not see this terrorist attack with American-eyes. We should look at this accident with neutral eyes.

Many americans do the same. I live in new york and I don't like the black and white language of good and evil that's been prevalent lately. I think it's naive and careless.

This is America against Asuma bin ladim who they guessing are the bad guy behind this and they demand to have this guy who they actually dont know did it??? How can they send forces to get a guy that they only are guessing is the responsible for the attack? This is just americas temporary scapegoat.

That too is naive. I think our intelligence agencies's are more responsibile than you are giving us credit for.

Youre president Bush said that this was an attack on democracy and a attack on all democracy countries wich includes Sweden. This is so not true!

Yes and no. It is to the extent that terrorism (and therefores its sources) is a possibility for any first world nation and these first world nations that are democratic care about the managment of terrorist extremism and their poilicies that are at their heart's core anti-democratic. On the other hand, it isn't inasmuch as there are highly specific reasons for last week's events. One reason might be the us's involvement in israel, which is controversial even in new york.

The media here demands us to have three minutes of silence for the victims of America. I just wonder...do you Americans interupt school education for a minute of silence on accidents that happens here or for example Afghanistan? And I cant really believe that this accident demands more silent minutes than other europeen accident. Right know american media is controlling our media, and thats just not right.

I think your grievance is notable, but your reasoning is sophistical and childish. There are reasons why people might be more open to sympathizing with american than they might for people who may have died in venezuela because of a flood or an earthquake. Do you really need me to explain to you what these reasons are?

Terrorists did in this attack kill very many innocent people, wild guess about 10 000? This is horrible but thats like one third of the innocent people that were killed in Israels attack on Libanon in the beginning of the eightys. Military forces NOT included.

No nation is perfect. The crucial difference that has to be understood, is that when america commits such things they are regarded as errors. People are criticized for this. AMerican criticize government excutives for this. And there is that freedom of speech and government to protest in the first place. When someone like Osama does it, on the contrary, it is quite intentional. The decimation of civilian life was the raison detre for last week's attacks.

In every sentence there is a god bless america thing and punish the bad guys on the other side thing. This nationalism, this patriotism feels so fake. And it seems that the American goverment do whatever they can to make this patriotism even stronger.

Why are you so hateful towards the U.S.? Why do you resent out nation so much that you feel you have to lash out at us? Exercise your humanity and have some compassion for the fact that we have suffered a crisis. Don't criticize. If we are rallying behind such monikers it's not that bad, and no doubt it is heartfelt and sincere. This is how things happen. Of course in the other thread I express a dislike for this, but on a different level. Pardon me if I appear to be contradicting myself. The context of here is slightly different.

Now America want to have there revange...the attack of world trade center was the other sides revenge and america is stupid enough to send forces out there that will kill more innocent people, non-American people. Is this smart? You are doing almost the same as the so called "terrorists" did.

You're right. This issue is vastly complex. The only thing we have on our side is that america does stand for democracy and a system of idealogies that any civilized human being should support. On the other side, extremist muslims are involved because they are seeking to create a muslim world, that neglects and excises values that I find extremely dear to me and essential to the advancement of the human race. These muslims want a world full of muslims. And do you know what life is like in such fundamentalist muslim nations? You can wave good bye to about 90% of the freedoms activities and basic human rights that you enjoy now.

The issues arises. I tend to view this "war" in non-moralistic terms. It is to a large extent a might makes right situation. In other words, a "you attack my crew we will attack your crew and destroy you" scenario. There will be casualities. But that's war. The only justification that can possibly exist for such a tribalism is the ends. In the case of america it's democracy, and the perpetuation and safety of our way of life vs muslim totalitarianism. I don't agree with america's involvement in israel which probably had an enormous influence in the terrorist attacks of late, btw, but that's a different issue.

Muslim countries are controlled by media, so are you Americans...

Now you're being silly. To a certain extent this is true, but this true of every people of any nation. The difference is that america is not guided by the biases of fundamentalist religion (well that's the debate anyway. I proposed in the other thread basically that america may not be on many levels free from religion, but inherently it is dedicated and working to be so). Consider this: do you know the leader of the Afghanistan Taliban prohibits being photographed? Why? Because some muslim tenet regarding the soul. America is largely christian, but you won't find some guy who thinks he's the christ and enforcing his beliefs onto others despotically.

American lifes is absolutely not more valuable than an Muslim life.

In general I agree. But then I think you're ignoring the ugly nature of war, where the horrible is expected and accepted under the idea that the ends justify the means. Simply put, I think the american way of life is more valuable than the muslim way of life.

 

[Sputnik]

great reply to my post!

My post
"Muslim countries are controlled by media, so are you Americans... "

Your post
"Now you're being silly. To a certain extent this is true, but this true of every people of any nation. The difference is that america is not guided by the biases of fundamentalist religion (well that's the debate anyway. I proposed in the other thread basically that america may not be on many levels free from religion, but inherently it is dedicated and working to be so). Consider this: do you know the leader of the Afghanistan Taliban prohibits being photographed? Why? Because some muslim tenet regarding the soul. America is largely christian, but you won't find some guy who thinks he's the christ and enforcing his beliefs onto others despotically. "


Ok. US media isnt as bad as the media in the muslim contries, I totaly agree on that.

"but this true of every people of any nation"

Yes and no...media is affecting people everywhere, more or less.
The muslim countries have very much of that, but USA also has some. America has much more of that than Sweden and some other europeen nations.

 

[_Transparent_]

hmn, its important not to get too wraped up in the news' views, thats mainly why i dont watch it too much although my parents are. i think this is my first reply on something to do with the terrorist incident because i want to see this through my own eyes not other peoples, i mean look at bin laden, although he probably done it we DONT have proof he did, just speculation, yet ive seen newspapers and have been told by friends that its him. no proof yet people want him dead. it makes sense to retaliate as if the US dont then it will happen again, like if a bank robber got caught but was released without charges, if i were the robber i'd rob another bank.

 

[Sputnik]

Penny: Correct me if Im wrong about this.

America didnt care about the war before the bombing at pearl harbour. Then suddenly after the bombing they suddenly reacted.
They used atom bombs against Hiroshima. Not nice, I thinks its an extrem solution. And Sweden also helped at the Bosnia conflict! Sweden is also a very small country compared to USA so we dont have the same resources to help.

"Sputnik, you are so very naive. Say terrorists attacked your country. Would you want revenge? Would you want the person responsible broght to justice? Would you want people taking a moment of silence for your fellow countrymen? Would you want other nations helping you? YES. Don't deny it."

Offcorse we would have a moment of silence in this country, and it would be very nice if other countries had it too. But, it doesnt feel good if we care and have silence minutes here for you and USA didnt care of us, and didnt have silence for us. I think the USA should care more of us outside

"Would you want the person responsible broght to justice? "

Yes offcourse! If they find the person who was responsible for it, and it doesnt kill innocent people. But America isnt 100 percent shure that bin ladim is behind this. And I think they should think first, find the guilty, then react.
I think this reaction of USA is very sudden.

 

[MetalManCPA]

I agree that media is overused, but an objective eye must be used here.

There are so many issues here which need definition, but I know the definition varies around the world - terrorism, democracy, freedom, etc. I've never felt we are a terrorist nation, though obviously a lot of the world believes so.

This incident happened in a place outside of the "normal" (I know this is a bad word here) acts of terrorism that happen worldwide - ie: it happens almost daily in the Middle East. This event, to me, put terrorism on the front page worldwide - because it happened on the soil of the deemed #1 powerful nation in the world, and besides all of this "deserve it" and "had it coming" talk, no one really thought it would happen and on such a grand scale.

I think the world needs a fresh look at terrorism. Instead of the talk statting everybody does it in some fashion, including the USA, it's the out front deliberate act of killing innocent lives that needs addressing. It's also how countries react and address "globality" (a made up word?) that's an issue.

I see most other countries acting like pacifists. Talk is cheap - actions are what gets the job done. I'll agree that America's idea of global peace is probably an undertaking no one can accomplish on their own, although we try. And we've made many mistakes, and have killed many. But we seem to be the only country that's willing to stick its neck out for that overall unattainable utopian world.

We've helped nations we hate now, because at the time, it seemed they were against the same things we were. But we've "helped", and are willing to take our lumps for it.

In order to stop any eveil, pacifism will do nothing. So, if it means the US will look and act just like the terrorists - tough. If you knew your next door neighbor was a terrorist, would you break bread with him/her? I'd want them dead - because this threat is more dangerous than any other I've seen - a stealth and cowardly way of doing battle. Now we know (or now will admit it) that terrorism exists all around, and it spreads like a disease. So I say find any way to combat it. Sure, the US can't win here - the pacifists will say force and killing is bad, we'll be called hypocrits by many because we are seen as terrorists. Well, what happened in NY, and what happens in the Middle East, Ireland, etc. is a war that no one (including the US) has been willing to take on globally. Well, I guess the US got a wake-up call, and it's our turn to fight back.

 

[Mr. Black]

Originally posted by metalmancpa
I'd want them dead - because this threat is more dangerous than any other I've seen - a stealth and cowardly way of doing battle.

where as firing a cruise missile from 2000 miles away is a much more honourable and noble way to do battle? there is nothing cowardly about about giving your life for a cause you believe, even if me and you might think the cause is wrong...

 

[Opet]

Originally posted by metalmancpa
This incident happened in a place outside of the "normal" (I know this is a bad word here) acts of terrorism that happen worldwide - ie: it happens almost daily in the Middle East. This event, to me, put terrorism on the front page worldwide - because it happened on the soil of the deemed #1 powerful nation in the world, and besides all of this "deserve it" and "had it coming" talk, no one really thought it would happen and on such a grand scale.

I wanted to say something like this but couldn't find the words, but if I did, I would have put it something like this.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Mr Black:

True - dying for what you believe in is an act of nobility for that individual. But this still is a new face of battle. Unless I'm purely naive (which is always a possibilty), the US is a known enemy to it's combatants. How the battle is fought - missiles from a distance, etc, isn't the point I was trying to make.

For the most part, whoever we've battled knew we were coming. No one knew Tuesday was coming - that is the difference, and that's what makes this battle unchartered territory on a global scale.

Terrorism is the only "war" I've seen where the warriors can be anywhere, look normal, and never show themselves. I think, for the most part, the US shows itself when fighting.

 

[Liquid Tension]

sputnik,

I would like to beleive that America isn't looking for revenge,but for a closure that this won't happen again ANYWHERE in this world. If these groups aren't stop now what will anyone do when they own nuclear weapons?

Your statement about America not giving a rip about WWII until it was bombed IS WRONG! You are talking out of your ass with that statement!

Enjoy the moment....

 

[Mr. Black]

Originally posted by Liquid Tension
sputnik,

Your statement about America not giving a rip about WWII until it was bombed IS WRONG! You are talking out of your ass with that statement!

This is very true...during the battle of britain, america provided britain with money, fuel, even the propelers for Spitfires and huricanes...america, officialy, had nothing to do with the war then...yet they still helped, unlike many other neutral countries, Ireland harbouring u-boats for example, Sweden also allowed Germany to transport troops over its terrority (although to be fair they weren't in much of a position to stop them) but they also stop Norwegians trying to flee from norway (many of whom wanted to join armies in britain) at the border and handed them to the Germans (they also returned german deserters to the germans to be executed)...until late 1943 at least until it became what direction events were going in...)

 

[Duvall]

Osama (Usama) bin Laden was already on the FBI's 10 most wanted list. If they'd found him before, they would have killed him. If they find him now, they'll kill him.

I'm willing to bet someone's going to off him in Afghanistan, pick up the reward and be done with it.

A lot of people seem to be mixing the US Government with the US people. Very, very different things. The government has ensconced itself deeply in many countries around the world for mutually beneficial contracts or for covert war-like operations. This seems to be fact, considering the monetary deals for Afghanistan, etc, which have been mentioned several times here. Sure, the US government seems to be pretty corrupt, but this doesn't mean that the citizens are ignorant of other countries' plights (though some are, granted), or unwilling to help.

I never thought I'd see the day I'd be defending another country.. even though it is my ancestral home..

 

[MountainDweller]

Originally posted by Sputnik
America didnt care about the war before the bombing at pearl harbour. Then suddenly after the bombing they suddenly reacted.
They used atom bombs against Hiroshima. Not nice, I thinks its an extrem solution.

It's true that the US wasn't officially involved in the war. At the time the US was more of an isolationist nature. What they found was ignoring a problem, no matter how distant it may seem, doesn't make it go away, and eventually you may just end up pulled into it once the problem's become much worse, as in WWII. Since then, the US has taken more of a interventionist stance to hopefully squelch hot spots or little flames before they become wildfires. I'm not exactly sure what to think on these issues because, on the one hand, I see the reasoning behind intervening - like above - but on the other hand, I sometimes feel that the US is trying too hard to not only police the world, but try to force its beliefs (not just political) upon others, which seems to be more of an imperialistic type of action.

As far as the bombing of Japan is concerned, I'd always thought of it as wrong, but I've come to realise that the loss of life - both civilian and military - would have been on a much grander scale if there had been a ground invasion. That was the main reason for that extreme action. Thus, it actually likely saved more lives than it took.