the natural disaster

[the_good_son141]

hi!im from greece...i can assure you that *old* people(35+)dont share that open mind.no matter what we believe,the majority is still looking down on turks...and politics get things which way they like,but its all about education and the history lesson each one of us is taught(ie,Alexander the Great is hailed on our books as a person who wanted to civilize Asia,but i cant see so much of that if i look it calm...he was yet another conquerer.)so history books are(mainly)plain crap!pure subjective views of the past that make people fight eachother(IMHO)
i'll go with Moss:everything you(we) know is wrong...

 

[Don Corleone]

Originally posted by Ivo
not true?
as far as i know there were 2 million armenians killed...

yes, history has it's misterious ways, but you can't deny this...
probably you'll say that nazi's didn't kill the jews in the holocaust?

numbers vary in each account. but it's true many armenians were killed by the ottomans. no one should deny that. but the thing is to be able to differentiate it from a genocide. compare it to the holocaust we know that took place in europe concerning the jewish nation. if you have a little knowledge on what happened here, you'll see that all those armenians that died in eastern turkey were killed by civilians, not the ottoman army. for an army to take action, parliament's permission is required. and during that time, the ottoman parliament (more of a sultan's consultant) consisted of 26 people, only 12 of them being turkish. as far as i can remember, there were 6 armenians in there. so how could such a group make a decision to hunt down those 2 million innocent people? that is where the difference is between what happened here and in europe...the german army actually tried to cleanse the jews and many other minorities... im sure you didnt know this bit of information, did you?

and the reason why those armenians were killed by the eastern citizens lies in the russian-ottoman war. the ottoman empire had become very weak towards the end of the 19th century and nations in the empire slowly seeked their independence, armenians being one of them (for 4 centuries they didnt mind being part of the ottoman empire, but as the money dried out, they became uneasy...very natural)...during the russian war, armenians turned against the ottoman army, fighting together with the russian army. this is whhat pissed the people there...

and one other thing, everyone notices the armenians killed in turkey but why doesnt anybody recognize the people killed by the armenians?? let me tell you why: because nobody wants to. turks have always been the number one hated nation in the world...so no one gives a fuck if they are killed at all. let's face it.

 

[Don Corleone]

Originally posted by Mariner
And what about the Greece against Turkey thing? eh?
It are not the people hating eachother, just the kind of politics in that particulary country.
@without: have you ever thought about the fact that Turkey isn't allowed (so far) in the European Union and other countries are?!
You know, the turkish policy sucks... and religion is a reason for it (and don't say now I hate muslims, that's bullshit)

exactly! i have nothing against anyone in the whole world, but some politicians get their votes from such fascist and unpeaceful views.

and i dont see how all of this relates to us being part of the EU...

 

[without]

and if you study the relations btw europe and ottoman empire in midlle age you can understand why it's the most hated country..

 

[sol83]

I can asure you that the US government does not hate Turkey at all...... Your country has probably the most important positioning on Europe and Asia! It connects these two continents and therefore Bush and co. want to have great a relationship with Turkey. The US is for many years pushing towards the connection of Turkey with the EU. Not that they care about the country, they just need a strong ally in the Middle East....

 

[Don Corleone]

Originally posted by the_good_son141
hi!im from greece...i can assure you that *old* people(35+)dont share that open mind.no matter what we believe,the majority is still looking down on turks...and politics get things which way they like,but its all about education and the history lesson each one of us is taught(ie,Alexander the Great is hailed on our books as a person who wanted to civilize Asia,but i cant see so much of that if i look it calm...he was yet another conquerer.)so history books are(mainly)plain crap!pure subjective views of the past that make people fight eachother(IMHO)
i'll go with Moss:everything you(we) know is wrong...

i can definitely say the same has lessened very much in turkey during the last decade...the only people that dont share that open mind are REALLY old people...people who have either been to the war or who have listened to it from their fathers. lately, the turkish youth is VERY open-minded and friendly. i have made a few greek friends during my years in model united nations (a high school international activity) and we've had long discussions about this. some of the things i heard from them about turkey are pretty shocking and never worth mentioning at all. time has come for the two nations' youths to open their eyes. nothing is as easy as labeling "black" and "white."

 

[without]

sol i
s rigth too..

they don't hate..
but they want to manipulate

 

[Don Corleone]

Originally posted by sol83
I can asure you that the US government does not hate Turkey at all...... Your country has probably the most important positioning on Europe and Asia! It connects these two continents and therefore Bush and co. want to have great a relationship with Turkey. The US is for many years pushing towards the connection of Turkey with the EU. Not that they care about the country, they just need a strong ally in the Middle East....

you've just said it, sol83: "Not that they care about the country, they just need a strong ally in the Middle East." america does not care about anything at all but its economical power and position in the world politics...check out all that happened in vietnam, somali, afghanistan, yugostlavia and what is going to happen in iraq...and none of these change the fact turks are the number one hated nation. we tried to conquer every goddam area in the world so it IS very natural to be hated by everyone. but things have changed and the republic of turkey is not the ottoman empire at all.

 

[without]

Originally posted by Don Corleone
things have changed and the republic of turkey is not the ottoman empire at all.

VERY ÝMPORTANT POÝNT !

 

[the_good_son141]

Originally posted by Don Corleone
i can definitely say the same has lessened very much in turkey during the last decade...the only people that dont share that open mind are REALLY old people...people who have either been to the war or who have listened to it from their fathers. lately, the turkish youth is VERY open-minded and friendly. i have made a few greek friends during my years in model united nations (a high school international activity) and we've had long discussions about this. some of the things i heard from them about turkey are pretty shocking and never worth mentioning at all. time has come for the two nations' youths to open their eyes. nothing is as easy as labeling "black" and "white."

dont forget the brainwash in the military corps.i see my friends serving their duty become hostile with turks,even if they didnt care much before.i sense it goes both ways.its called propaganda,and its going on for many years.those military officials are the root of evil sometimes.
but...there is the Cyprus thing in the middle,which is a big drawback of turkey in international affairs,affects me(and many others) a bit too.

 

[mars]

Originally posted by Strangelight
Ok, well what about a band you enjoy and the ones in the band that dont write the music are the dickhead rockstars? Why do people tolerate that? why why why????

Obviously I'm not the only one thinking you mean Vinny. Even If you don't, I think this is pretty bad. Think you should be aware of how people might reasonably explain your words regardless of what you intend to say, but not reacting te Leonore's question makes things pretty clear.

And Danny, if you're not reacting when Forlorn hope patheticly suggests, probably on very little evidence, Vinny is some kind of asshole I get the feeling you agree to some extent. If this is true, why are you still in one band?

Anyway, still love you all! Looking forward to the december gigs.

 

[Don Corleone]

ahh the good old cyprus...how could i forget that one? yes, actually that was the only thing politicians hold onto a few decades back when it comes to greek hostility...nowadays no one in turkey gives much of a fuck about it as we all have our own problems. and not many people know it, but turkish cypriots are not very much fond of us turks here.

i have my hopes, though. klerides and denktas are gonna solve it this time. 'cause, actually, this is a big drawback in international affairs for everyone: turkey and the whole of cyprus...

 

[Don Corleone]

Originally posted by mars
Obviously I'm not the only one thinking you mean Vinny. Even If you don't, I think this is pretty bad. Think you should be aware of how people might reasonably explain your words regardless of what you intend to say, but not reacting te Leonore's question makes things pretty clear.

And Danny, if you're not reacting when Forlorn hope patheticly suggests, probably on very little evidence, Vinny is some kind of asshole I get the feeling you agree to some extent. If this is true, why are you still in one band?

Anyway, still love you all! Looking forward to the december gigs.

wow that was quite straight forward.

 

[Dying_Swan]

I hate politcs.... All politicians care about is money, so I try to avoid getting into political discussions. No matter what comes out of it, no matter how good a solution is, if the great powers of this world do not like it, it will not take place... Always remember that there is no democratic government on this planet... Democracy is something that the human nation can never achieve... At least not in the next 200 years....

Take care...

 

[mars]

Thank you,and although it hasn't the same relevance as the political stuff discussed here,what's you're opinion?

 

[mars]

Originally posted by mars
Thank you Don corleone,and although it hasn't the same relevance as the political stuff discussed here,what's you're opinion?

 

[Don Corleone]

just like you, mars, i have some speculations about vinny...but thats all...only speculations...doubts, maybe.

but i have always wondered why he doesnt come here to post? dont you wonder that too?

 

[neph]

I don't think that those are speculations - Danny's first post on the official website stated it quite clearly. It's just sad.

 

[Dying_Swan]

Originally posted by Don Corleone
just like you, mars, i have some speculations about vinny...but thats all...only speculations...doubts, maybe.

but i have always wondered why he doesnt come here to post? dont you wonder that too?

I thought that vinny is not on this forum becaise he hates computers... Might have heard wrong though...

Anyway, take care....

 

[Ivo]

Originally posted by Don Corleone
numbers vary in each account. but it's true many armenians were killed by the ottomans. no one should deny that. but the thing is to be able to differentiate it from a genocide. compare it to the holocaust we know that took place in europe concerning the jewish nation. if you have a little knowledge on what happened here, you'll see that all those armenians that died in eastern turkey were killed by civilians, not the ottoman army. for an army to take action, parliament's permission is required. and during that time, the ottoman parliament (more of a sultan's consultant) consisted of 26 people, only 12 of them being turkish. as far as i can remember, there were 6 armenians in there. so how could such a group make a decision to hunt down those 2 million innocent people? that is where the difference is between what happened here and in europe...the german army actually tried to cleanse the jews and many other minorities... im sure you didnt know this bit of information, did you?

and the reason why those armenians were killed by the eastern citizens lies in the russian-ottoman war. the ottoman empire had become very weak towards the end of the 19th century and nations in the empire slowly seeked their independence, armenians being one of them (for 4 centuries they didnt mind being part of the ottoman empire, but as the money dried out, they became uneasy...very natural)...during the russian war, armenians turned against the ottoman army, fighting together with the russian army. this is whhat pissed the people there...

and one other thing, everyone notices the armenians killed in turkey but why doesnt anybody recognize the people killed by the armenians?? let me tell you why: because nobody wants to. turks have always been the number one hated nation in the world...so no one gives a fuck if they are killed at all. let's face it.

look man, I don't want to get into more serious discussion - and I can not agree with all of the things you said - Do you know about something that is called PROPAGANDA - it is a very bad thing indeed - and we all the balkanian countries suffer from it - we also have reasons to dislike your country - I guess you know that...but I don't want to get any deeper, coz the discussion here will become pretty historical and probably ugly (as it is now), right?