The News Thread

[Dak]

I said he probably misspoke.

Apparently it was based on this:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...e-claims-from-backlash-over-trump-remark.html

"Between 2012 and 2016 the murder rate [in Sweden] is up almost 70 percent," Horowitz told "Tucker Carlson Tonight," citing the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention. "Rape between 2007 and 2015 is up a similar number, almost 70 percent. These are their statistics, not my statistics."

Obviously there can be other explanations for those statistics as well as why those time frames were chosen (2007-2015 vs 2012-2016....and when did the influx of immigration occur in comparison?). Regardless, I think the timing of the riots is amusing.

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm pretty sure the increase in rape is due to changes in Sweden's sex crime laws that have made it easier to prosecute offenders.

 

[rms]

gonna have to cite something

 

[Einherjar86]

gonna have to cite something

If we look specifically at sex offences, which the Fox News segment highlighted, there were 18,100 sex offenses reported to the police in 2015, down 11 percent from 2014, according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention.

The number of rapes reported decreased 12 percent between 2014 and 2015, to 5,920, the agency reported. The council noted that in Sweden, when a single case is reported, every incident associated with the case is also reported as an offense during the same year.

The amount of reported rape offenses has gone up in the last 10 years (2006-15), which the agency said can be partially attributed to new legislation in 2005 that augmented the types of acts that can be classified as rape.

"The effect of the statutory change appeared in the statistics such that the number of reported offences in respect of sexual coercion and exploitation declined in the years immediately following the statutory change while the number of reported rapes increased," according to the agency. In 2013, a rape offense was broadened "to include cases where the victim reacts passively."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-statistics-say-about-immigration-and-sweden/

 

[rms]

Sweden's sex crime laws that have made it easier to prosecute offenders.

 

[Einherjar86]

Did you mean to say anything in response?

 

[Dak]

I'm surprised citizenship isn't being checked off when being cited for an offense. You have to report citizenship/immigrant status on pretty much any other kind of government form. Would make these statistics much clearer instead of having to compile and analyze all sorts of information to try and guess and argue about what passes for acceptable inference.

 

[CiG]

Sweden is trash. Reporters get assaulted by mobs of immigrants when they enter immigrant neighbourhoods.

The white-guilters will always be apologists for them though, nothing changes.

I'm using "toilet" to refer to the floor toilet, not the general vicinity of the room. Floor toilets don't gender discriminate.

I'm talking about the restroom structure as a whole. Why would we suddenly limit it to the floor toilet if we're talking about gendered toilets? This comes back around to my thought that we should choose between getting rid of gendered toilets entirely or acknowledge that trans passing should be the bottom line for who uses which bathroom.

I'm suggesting that people of color also pass, but they did so in order to blend in rather than to identify as white (although inevitably many of them did end up identifying as white to some degree).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity)#Passing_for_white

Werner Sollors also published this landmark text that wrote in part about racial passing:

This is a very messy sidetrack. One would have to first delve into the idea that you're no longer white once you have even a little bit of something else in you.

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm talking about the restroom structure as a whole. Why would we suddenly limit it to the floor toilet if we're talking about gendered toilets? This comes back around to my thought that we should choose between getting rid of gendered toilets entirely or acknowledge that trans passing should be the bottom line for who uses which bathroom.

Right, but I'm saying that there isn't much difference in the actual apparatus that people go into the bathroom for. We separate bathrooms by gender, but both men's and women's bathrooms use the exact same toilets. Sure, men's bathroom's have urinals; but most transgender people will probably use stalls anyway. And those that don't will have had the most convincing surgery so as not to raise any eyebrows.

This is a very messy sidetrack. One would have to first delve into the idea that you're no longer white once you have even a little bit of something else in you.

I'm not trying to make it into a sidetrack. All I said was that I think most transgender people would probably try and pass, and that their reason for passing would likely be different than racial passing. That is, blacks often felt a need to pass for the purposes of their personal safety, blending in, or of being treated better for being "white," whereas transgender people are attracted to a certain gender and will probably want to pass as a performance of gender identification. So, whereas blacks would probably prefer not to pass, transgender people may actually prefer it.

It was simply a comment on how passing works differently in different groups.

 

[CiG]

I'm not trying to make it into a sidetrack. All I said was that I think most transgender people would probably try and pass, and that their reason for passing would likely be different than racial passing. That is, blacks often felt a need to pass for the purposes of their personal safety, blending in, or of being treated better for being "white," whereas transgender people are attracted to a certain gender and will probably want to pass as a performance of gender identification. So, whereas blacks would probably prefer not to pass, transgender people may actually prefer it.

It was simply a comment on how passing works differently in different groups.

Yes, I merely felt it was an unnecessary comparison or frame of reference because racial segregation is quite different to what we're discussing here.

Anyway I think we've reached a point wherein we're not really disagreeing with each other very much anymore.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

This is really a bigger part of the problem than most realize. Trans people have been using whichever bathroom they see as most appropriate for years, and as far as I call tell it has not even been an issue worth talking about. The argument about passability is unfortunately important because doing so complies with social norms, and not doing so unnecessarily goes against the grain and creates controversy. Im not saying that social norms are inviolable, but on the same token I dont think anybody is going to wear a death metal t-shirt to a business deal. Not because they cant, but because our social norms dictate what is an acceptable appearance for such a situation and this is fully rooted into our culture. When someone who is clearly just a man with a dress walks into a woman's bathroom, even a young child is capable of recognizing the aberration.

To me, this issue is entirely a social one. Just like you cant force someone to respect you, you cannot force people in general to be ok with (I like the pulling the rug out analogy) turning our social norms upside down. The opposition to recent events is only to be expected until people can change their perspective and come up with reasonable compromises. Personally im all for not legislating this and allowing/forcing the trans community to go back to how they have been fitting in already without creating controversy.

Talking about social norms and regulations of trans people also brings up the discussion of their validation. Some people are fully in the camp that trans women are women (see Mort), some people are only superficially convinced (and know deep down that a trans woman is still a man), and even others who view transgenderism as a mental health condition. I feel like gender and bathrooms will only be able to be properly discussed on a large scale when the general public has more of an agreement on how they view the transgender community. Personally I lean towards the mental health side of the argument, and therefore would not like to see signs and bathroom designations that normalize gender transitioning. This is a fringe population of people we are talking about, and there is nothing glorious about having to suffer from this condition.

 

[Einherjar86]

Anyway I think we've reached a point wherein we're not really disagreeing with each other very much anymore.

 

[CiG]

Perfect gif response. Respect for foe increased tenfold. gg, etc.

 

[CiG]

My God...

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

The look on Tuckers face throughout that video says it all, lol. I love it though, they just need to keep putting these rabid liberals on TV and showcasing to the world what kind of people these blood sucking ticks really are. That type of attitude is the reason why Trumps in the white house right now.

And btw the US does not have the "biggest nuclear arsenal in the world", this guy does ...

 

[Dak]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ctly_what_people_think_but_thats_our_job.html

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I think that the dangerous, you know, edges here are that he is trying to undermine the media and trying to make up his own facts. And it could be that while unemployment and the economy worsens, he could have undermined the messaging so much that he can actually control exactly what people think. And that, that is our job.

 

[rms]

 

[CiG]

Reminds me of that dumb ass anchor that said having the WikiLeaks emails was illegal (quickly realising the implication as he has them) and said but the media are allowed to have them...

 

[Blind Guardian]

Sweden is trash. Reporters get assaulted by mobs of immigrants when they enter immigrant neighbourhoods.

Since Sweden and Scandinavia is traditionally seen as a very successful "left leaning" place it is often used as a hitting bat in debates between the left and right. It's being exaggerated as both a utopia and hell on earth depending on who you ask, and neither is close to correct.

My political views lean more towards those of the average Trump voter, but much of what I read about Sweden from abroad still bothers me because of how ridiculously hyperbolic it is.

 

[CiG]

Since Sweden and Scandinavia is traditionally seen as a very successful "left leaning" place it is often used as a hitting bat in debates between the left and right. It's being exaggerated as both a utopia and hell on earth depending on who you ask, and neither is close to correct.

My political views lean more towards those of the average Trump voter, but much of what I read about Sweden from abroad still bothers me because of how ridiculously hyperbolic it is.

I'm just reacting to video footage. Not sure how video footage can be hyperbolic.