The News Thread

[HamburgerBoy]

Calling him a troll diminishes the more likely reality that there are far more actual racist ideologues than ideological trolls out there, and that the behaviors of the ideological trolls are enabling the behaviors of actual ideologues. That's where I'd put my money.

But then, we're all speculating, and odds are that speculation is all we'll have in this case. Still, I think passionate ideologue is the most likely scenario.

Furthermore, I honestly don't see much difference between ideologues and ideological trolls of the J.J. Christian variety.

How is the relative abundance of racist ideologues relevant to the ideology of a particular individual? When a man of clear Asian descent commits a murder, do we call him black since statistically that would have been the more likely description?

More info

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...d_suspect_in_2_slayings.html#incart_big-photo

People who Christian met through Portland's metal music scene were also shocked.

Robert Moon described Christian as gentle, but unpredictable. Christian was an extremely loyal friend, but also someone who needed mental health care, Moon said.

Moon is Native American, and he disputed characterizations of Christian as racist.

Brandie Leach had similar observations. She hadn't seen him at shows recently.

"When the metal music community turned him away the alt right community was like a safe space for him to express his anger," Leach wrote in a Facebook message. "I don't think he was driven by racism as much as he was a general hatred for most things and people."

In recent months, Christian frequently described himself on Facebook as a nihilist.

...

Brookins said he did not believe Christian was a white supremacist. He said his friend was a pagan and practices "ancestor worship." Brookins said he was particularly passionate in his opposition to monotheism, the belief that there is only one god.

...

The suspect was ranting about many things, using "hate speech or biased language," and at one point focused on the young women, Simpson said in a news conference Friday evening at the Hollywood/Northeast 42nd Avenue Transit Center.

 

[CiG]

Okay, this is looking like it's going to be a complicated one.

 

[Dak]

Man yells at brownish people, kills beigeish people. Clearly hates brownish people and lets all talk about that mostly.

Identity politics is strong in this the current year.

 

[Einherjar86]

How is the relative abundance of racist ideologues relevant to the ideology of a particular individual? When a man of clear Asian descent commits a murder, do we call him black since statistically that would have been the more likely description?

More info

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/...d_suspect_in_2_slayings.html#incart_big-photo

All I'm saying is that it seems slippery, to me, to paint him as a troll who clearly wanted to enable racist behavior in others, yet simultaneously claim that he himself wasn't racist. Also, racism can assume different forms; one can be perfectly genial toward Native Americans and exhibit bigotry toward Muslims. Racism doesn't necessitate hatred toward all other races.

Your example is of a different tenor. In the case of an Asian committing a crime, we would have no reason to call him black because we have evidence that he's Asian (obligatory identity, again). In the case at hand, we have evidence that he was racially biased against Muslims--or perhaps more accurately, against those whom he viewed as inhabiting this country illegally. We might say that this doesn't constitute racism, but only a suspicion toward immigrants. I would counter that the fact he made the assumption that these women were illegal immigrants (regardless of whether or not they actually were) implies a racist attitude.

Man yells at brownish people, kills beigeish people. Clearly hates brownish people and lets all talk about that mostly.

Identity politics is strong in this the current year.

Why does the fact that he killed white people preclude his racism toward Muslims? I don't understand why I need to be accused of downplaying the severity of his crime simply because he also demonstrated racist behavior toward non-whites.

He killed white people, he's going to pay for it. I don't think there's much to discuss.

 

[Dak]

I'm just noticing that most of the "robust conversation" on the interwebs surrounding a double homicide is about some verbal abuse towards the not-victims rather than the double homicide. This further illuminates the degree to which the material now plays a reduced role in comparison with the immaterial. The most vile sin this Oregonian committed was to emit sounds which were unpleasant; the double homicide, no matter how unrelated the victims to those targets of the sounds, merely underscores the obvious danger posed by such sounds. We must engage in very strict, yet common sense sound control.

 

[CiG]

Well, if a man stopped a rapist from raping a woman and that man was killed, that wouldn't stop the crime from being of a sexist nature just because a man was killed rather than the actual target; the woman.

I'm not sure why we label anti-Muslim crimes as racist though, seems more akin to a bigotry towards religion or ideology. In fact, very much akin to anti-Zionism in that it can take on racial elements in extreme cases but in more moderate cases it's a perfectly reasonable position.

Unlike anti-black bigotry which has no varying degrees of justification, it's just pure racism with no redeeming qualities or valid points.

 

[Einherjar86]

In this particular case, it seems like Muslim-oriented than simply bigotry/suspicion toward non-whites in general. Christian made comments about how they need to leave the country because they don't pay their taxes, or some such. There's no way he could know this for certain, though--it's the assumption that makes it racist.

 

[Krow]

I think what we should all take out of this is that being a white knight in real life isn't a super good idea.

Those men died fools. I do wonder if any thought of regret passed through their minds as their last moments of life drained away, or if they were sated by the fact they'd be called heroes on the internet.

 

[tagradh]

Standing up for strangers that have done nothing wrong is foolish?

Fuck that pussy ideology.

 

[CiG]

It reads like a strange situation. Most people who are saved by heroes don't leave the scene, I'm wondering if they even knew anybody stood up for them. At what point did they actually leave? It's just strange to me.

But if these guys genuinely did save two women from being stabbed to death by a racist, I respect them absolutely. I have nothing against heroism whatsoever.

it's the assumption that makes it racist.

In what way? People say the exact same thing about communists all the time. They don't have jobs or pay taxes. It's a meme at this point.

There is just as much racial diversity among communists as there is within Islam.

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm just noticing that most of the "robust conversation" on the interwebs surrounding a double homicide is about some verbal abuse towards the not-victims rather than the double homicide. This further illuminates the degree to which the material now plays a reduced role in comparison with the immaterial. The most vile sin this Oregonian committed was to emit sounds which were unpleasant; the double homicide, no matter how unrelated the victims to those targets of the sounds, merely underscores the obvious danger posed by such sounds. We must engage in very strict, yet common sense sound control.

Words are material (are you triggered yet?).

The way I see it, the victims directed the severity of the situation away from other potential victims. No one is ignoring that.

It reads like a strange situation. Most people who are saved by heroes don't leave the scene, I'm wondering if they even knew anybody stood up for them. At what point did they actually leave? It's just strange to me.

Put yourself in their position. At the risk of hyperbolizing, I guarantee you they don't want to be the religious/ethnic/racial/what-have-you others at the center of a political clusterfuck. They could be entirely grateful but simultaneously fearful for their families, or that they might invite or incur unwanted attention.

In what way? People say the exact same thing about communists all the time. They don't have jobs or pay taxes. It's a meme at this point.

There is just as much racial diversity among communists as there is within Islam.

In this case, it was almost certainly the color of their skin and their clothing that elicited Christian's reaction. That means he was assuming a connection between their ethnicity and illegality. That's a racist association (i.e. "all brown people are illegal immigrants").

It's also quite common for religious intolerance directed toward Muslims to manifest as a symptom of underlying racial prejudices.

 

[CiG]

Put yourself in their position. At the risk of hyperbolizing, I guarantee you they don't want to be the religious/ethnic/racial/what-have-you others at the center of a political clusterfuck. They could be entirely grateful but fearful for their families, or that they might invite or incur unwanted attention.

It's a shame because what happened is a demonstration that yes, bigots are out there, but so are heroes and they have the same skin colour as the bigots. But I can't help but think there's an important part of the story missing here.

In this case, it was almost certainly the color of their skin and their clothing that elicited Christian's reaction. That means he was assuming a connection between their ethnicity and illegality.

It's also quite common for intolerance directed toward Muslims to manifest as a symptom of underlying racial prejudices.

I'm just not seeing the race angle and I'm not sure why it's so imperative that it be established in relation to Islam. It's not inherent to me that bigotry towards Muslims has anything to do with race, I highly doubt this guy we're talking about, if he did what he is accused of, would have stopped himself if the Muslim women were white or Asian or whatever.

It's a hatred of a religion, of the foreign, of the ideology. Xenophobia perhaps in the sense of hating the foreign, but I suppose people don't really recognize a difference between the two anyway.

 

[CiG]

Update: apparently this guy was arrested back in 2002 for robbery and kidnapping and was shot in the cheek (face) by police.

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm just not seeing the race angle and I'm not sure why it's so imperative that it be established in relation to Islam. It's not inherent to me that bigotry towards Muslims has anything to do with race, I highly doubt this guy we're talking about, if he did what he is accused of, would have stopped himself if the Muslim women were white or Asian or whatever.

It's a hatred of a religion, of the foreign, of the ideology. Xenophobia perhaps in the sense of hating the foreign, but I suppose people don't really recognize a difference between the two anyway.

Race is bound up in all those things, but especially in "the foreign." Additionally, I'm skeptical of your comment that he wouldn't have stopped himself if it was a white women wearing a hijab. He probably would have been confused, certainly... but I don't think we can confidently say that he wouldn't have stopped himself, especially given the nature of his comments.

According to testimony, he accused the women of being here illegally. Depending on the clothing (which we're not certain of), he could be making multiple assumptions:

a) that both of these women were in fact Muslim (i.e. brown = Muslim)

b) that because they were Muslims they were also illegal immigrants (i.e. brown = illegal)

Even if it turns out that (b) is the only assumption he was making, his intolerance toward these women would appear not to be because of their religion primarily, but because they come from a different country. Without getting into a whole sticky deal, that amounts to racism as I understand it. His comments arise from a combined suspicion toward not just their clothing, but toward the color of their skin.

That's how I see it.

 

[CiG]

Fair enough.

Btw, I found his actual Facebook page, I assume it will be taken down soon. But yeah he definitely posted some insane stuff. He seems to have an affinity for Jim Jones.

http://m.facebook.com/jeremy.christian.581?fref=nf

 

[Krow]

Standing up for strangers that have done nothing wrong is foolish?

Fuck that pussy ideology.

Good thing you didn't look like a pussy. That stranger didn't give a fuck about you and they still don't but now you're dead. That Corpsegrinder looking fucking psycho would have sawed your little European head clear off. No more family, no more happiness, just a fucking box in the dirt for you, for what?

Being a good Samaritan is all fine and well in theory but in the world we live in it's frequently a foolish endeavor.

 

[tagradh]

Update: apparently this guy was arrested back in 2002 for robbery and kidnapping and was shot in the cheek (face) by police.

Shame he wasn't shot shot in the arse.

 

[tagradh]

Good thing you didn't look like a pussy. That stranger didn't give a fuck about you and they still don't but now you're dead. That Corpsegrinder looking fucking psycho would have sawed your little European head clear off. No more family, no more happiness, just a fucking box in the dirt for you, for what?

Being a good Samaritan is all fine and well in theory but in the world we live in it's frequently a foolish endeavor.

Hah. Wat?

Find something hard. Smash over head.

I'm not even making out that I'm hard, but I took on bout 10 guys once to protect a stranger and got a bit fucked up and got taken in by the police after protecting a woman from some violent cunt.

The world is better place
because some of us are willing to do shit.

 

[CF87]

Update: apparently this guy was arrested back in 2002 for robbery and kidnapping and was shot in the cheek (face) by police.

sometimes you get shot in the face, it happens.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

All I'm saying is that it seems slippery, to me, to paint him as a troll who clearly wanted to enable racist behavior in others, yet simultaneously claim that he himself wasn't racist. Also, racism can assume different forms; one can be perfectly genial toward Native Americans and exhibit bigotry toward Muslims. Racism doesn't necessitate hatred toward all other races.

Your example is of a different tenor. In the case of an Asian committing a crime, we would have no reason to call him black because we have evidence that he's Asian (obligatory identity, again). In the case at hand, we have evidence that he was racially biased against Muslims--or perhaps more accurately, against those whom he viewed as inhabiting this country illegally. We might say that this doesn't constitute racism, but only a suspicion toward immigrants. I would counter that the fact he made the assumption that these women were illegal immigrants (regardless of whether or not they actually were) implies a racist attitude.

Why does the fact that he killed white people preclude his racism toward Muslims? I don't understand why I need to be accused of downplaying the severity of his crime simply because he also demonstrated racist behavior toward non-whites.

He killed white people, he's going to pay for it. I don't think there's much to discuss.

I don't see that his intent was to enable racism in others; Trump supporters actively shunned him, his online history doesn't show any coherent advocacy of any racist platform, etc. Even the SPLC admits that his politics were incoherent with racist comments peppered in, not anything resembling a diehard neo-Nazi or white supremacist. He wasn't a troll in the sense, say, Richard Spencer is a troll. Richard Spencer trolls to support a policy of segregation. Jeremy Christian trolled to make a point that people care about things and that he's the only tr00 nihilistic believer in free speech on the planet. If they discover that he really was a member of any white supremacist groups then I'll take it back, but right now it looks like no one wanted him (something he also complained about).

From what I can tell, after he slashed the three white guys, there was nothing stopping him from going over to the Muslim women and doing the same. Further, the officer's words indicate that he had been mumbling on the bus to himself for some period of time about hate speech before he even began using hate speech against the Muslim women, so unless he just failed to notice them completely (possible if he was in some deep psychotic state I suppose) it seems like he was just carrying a massive chip on his shoulder when people got offended over his behavior in April.