The News Thread

And you wanted to exclusively use “in.”

........................

The assumption is that such people entering your home have ill intent to either use what’s yours or mistreat what’s yours. You must extend this assumption to immigrants (illegal ones, yes); but it doesn’t hold up. As the property owner of your house, you have the right to determine what’s done to your property; this doesn’t describe a citizenry’s relationship to its nation, which is a) collective, and b) not privately owned.

Because unless we are talking about US citizens in another country, the "in" is the fact that matters for reasons of national policy. The wellbeing of the existing citizenry and their descendents are the only legitimate interests of a nation/national government. And that goes for the US and other nations. The wellbeing of the citizenry of other countries are those countries' concern. This moral imperialism, if you will, sees the US as responsible for all other persons in the world. It's a sentiment which has buoyed military "adventurism", and also seeks to destroy the native citizenry with the import of more hungry mouths, teeming with diseases, and lacking basic literacy.

As the US has no magic dirt to solve these problems, their presence is a drain on resources produced by others and a depressing of markets they move into - illegally - which means that their intent is ill; they want what they have no right to. In the cases where illegals are not of the abject poor (like tech sector H1B overstays), they instead are part of a brain drain operation on countries which are trying to develop, and yet still depress respective markets. A single citizen has no right to determine what happens to the nation, but the nation does and in a republic or democracy this does involve the wishes of a plurality of the citizenry.

A poor choice of words, but what I meant is that we can rethink how supply and demand distributes money. For market fundamentalists, this is always automatically off the table. Any poses discussion of alternatives seems one a commie bullshitter from the outset.

We already attempt to do that through the fractional reserve banking system, progressive taxation, transfer payments, federal and state grants, tax incentives, etc. Each of these creates different supply and demand pressures but rarely "neatly" as intended. Except maybe the banking system benefiting banks and bankers, primarily, and the state education system benefits the state.
 
Because unless we are talking about US citizens in another country, the "in" is the fact that matters for reasons of national policy. The wellbeing of the existing citizenry and their descendents are the only legitimate interests of a nation/national government. And that goes for the US and other nations. The wellbeing of the citizenry of other countries are those countries' concern.

And then we encounter the problem of countries for whom the well-being of their citizens matters little--and citizens who no longer wish to remain in that country. Mobility is largely a matter of privilege, but it shouldn't be (that's a personal opinion, not a statement of fact).

The rights of human beings extend beyond what individual countries grant their citizens, and when dealing with human rights we can't default to each country's obligations to its citizens. There needs to be a larger conversation, and slamming the door (literally and figuratively) on immigration--even those who attempt to enter illegally--obstructs the global picture. Whether or not immigrants have pursued their citizenship legally should not be the be-all end-all of whether they're allowed to stay.

This moral imperialism, if you will, sees the US as responsible for all other persons in the world. It's a sentiment which has buoyed military "adventurism", and also seeks to destroy the native citizenry with the import of more hungry mouths, teeming with diseases, and lacking basic literacy.

As the US has no magic dirt to solve these problems, their presence is a drain on resources produced by others and a depressing of markets they move into - illegally - which means that their intent is ill; they want what they have no right to. In the cases where illegals are not of the abject poor (like tech sector H1B overstays), they instead are part of a brain drain operation on countries which are trying to develop, and yet still depress respective markets. A single citizen has no right to determine what happens to the nation, but the nation does and in a republic or democracy this does involve the wishes of a plurality of the citizenry.

I don't think the U.S. has magic dirt that can solve the entire global migration and displacement crisis; but it has means it chooses not to use, in part because of rather uninformed opinions among a very large percentage of Americans. I think part of the solution needs to be changing people's minds about who immigrants actually are. And I think the house analogy perpetuates that kind of misinformation.

We already attempt to do that through the fractional reserve banking system, progressive taxation, transfer payments, federal and state grants, tax incentives, etc. Each of these creates different supply and demand pressures but rarely "neatly" as intended. Except maybe the banking system benefiting banks and bankers, primarily, and the state education system benefits the state.

We do, I agree.
 
My snipping of your post isn't meant to suggest I didn't read it all or don't think it's not a coherent piece, but I want to zero in on, what I think, are the key pieces undergirding the disagreement.

The rights of human beings extend beyond what individual countries grant their citizens

It appears that we've switched positions on this, or maybe your devil's advocating has assisted me in shifting off this position when you really believed this all along; I don't know which is the case. But rights are a particular ideal which require force to enforce. How does one enforce rights inside, or outside the borders of a nation? With force. There's no magic aura of rights inhering in anyone.

And then we encounter the problem of countries for whom the well-being of their citizens matters little--and citizens who no longer wish to remain in that country. Mobility is largely a matter of privilege, but it shouldn't be (that's a personal opinion, not a statement of fact)......The rights of human beings extend beyond what individual countries grant their citizens, and when dealing with human rights we can't default to each country's obligations to its citizens.

Why? How? These are completely unsubstantiated assertions (potentially the "privilege of mobility" aside - it appears that migrants and refugees are quite mobile) which beg much force, blood, and treasure on their behalf.

There needs to be a larger conversation, and slamming the door (literally and figuratively) on immigration--even those who attempt to enter illegally--obstructs the global picture. Whether or not immigrants have pursued their citizenship legally should not be the be-all end-all of whether they're allowed to stay........I don't think the U.S. has magic dirt that can solve the entire global migration and displacement crisis; but it has means it chooses not to use, in part because of rather uninformed opinions among a very large percentage of Americans. I think part of the solution needs to be changing people's minds about who immigrants actually are. And I think the house analogy perpetuates that kind of misinformation.

Just because many Americans don't share your opinions doesn't make them uninformed. You're attempting to make a moral argument, and various "facts" don't change the calculations. The disagreement, along moral lines, can be represented by this social psychology graph from Haidt's research:

viewer.jpg
 
oh the irony in one of these new school "passive aggressive" racists calling others racist. But hey, we need more people like him to just keep burying the left deeper and deeper. I'm so happy this country has woken in recent years and started to see these scumbags for what they truly are.
 
Stats don't back up Lemon. Whole numbers absent any relative context (eg proportional statistics, etc.) only make the argument that white nationalists are an equivalent threat with the ever present since 9/11 caveat and ignoring foiled plots. And of course other minority gang violence is left out for comparison completely. Whether hack or shill, Lemon is a racist fake newser, aka a journalist.
 
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It's my favourite thing how they always frame their race-baiting contrarianist argument with "since [insert massive atrocity here]" haha. And of course it's always as a reaction to criticism of Islam, as if "white" is an ideology one can join or leave.
 
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Beto o rourke staff using campaign funds to feed and transport central american migrants

 
http://mwf.mb.ca/2018/11/01/firearm-ban-input/

Canada being cucks again. This is the key passage that no one ever understands in ty he great gun debate:

Further into the document Blair identifies theft, straw purchasing and firearms smuggling as significantly contributing to illicit firearms on the streets. In a nutshell, illegal activities by criminals are causing illegal firearms to become illegally available to other criminals… illegally
 
Unfortunately there are some who can't interpret this in a way that doesn't implicate my proverbial gun gathering proverbial dust in the proverbial closet.